Floor engineering works & costs/freeholders - Help Please :(

[atlasfever]

Hello,

I would appreciate feedback on the following:

Big question: Who is to pay for the £6k?

I have a 1st floor flat.
I bought the flat off the freeholder, who had done some dodgy work 12 years ago. I am stripping out all of his poor work (all of it) and starting fresh.
During the purchase process, he had undertaken an engineering report, which he shared with me, and the outcome of it was agreed officially to be paid for by him (simple stuff, noggins, etc). This week, I lifted the floorboards and saw that his contractor (12 years ago) had seriously sliced into the 2 main beams that support all of the joists in the living room. I had the freeholder come in today and bring the same engineer. Apparently, the engineer did not see this b/c he only lifted one or two of the floor boards during his first visit.

So, end result: Engineer rather shocked by the dodgy work and said that the two beams MUST be worked on, involving a process whereby a long channel is made into the old wood beam, a metal bar is put in to it, and the wall, and resin is filled in (council's preferred measure for listed building). It is supposed to take 2 weeks to do and cost about £6k.

So, who is to pay for this?
a. I am a leaseholder
b. Isn't this building engineering work? So, it's part of the building itself, and therefore be part of overall building work, and therefore I would pay my fixed % of it, as part of the service charge?
c. But, actually, he inflicted this damage on the building himself (it's not wood worm, or standard maintenance issues), so why am I paying for his dodgy work (or that of his contractor)? End of the day, my floor is someone else's ceiling, so I'm not the only one who doesn't want to see the floor fall down.

I'd appreciate feedback. I know that according to the lease, I own the floors (but I believe this is in relation to where I can put plumbing, etc), but yet, that can't really mean that I have to pay b/c if I were to do work to the floor (the other engineering works we already knew about), I have to undertake a party wall notice by way of surveyors. So, clearly, I don't 'own' that floor.

Confused. Thanks in advance for feedback

 

[Keith Bowman]

Sounds nasty and I am sure you will find plenty of sympathy (you can have mine for free!) - but what you need most of all is a good solicitor. It won't be free, but it will almost certainly be worth it. I hope the surveyor is insured!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Mmm, I agree with Keith. These issues are so difficult. We own a flat in London, share of freehold but on a 99 yr lease to be renewed by the freeholders (get your head round that!) We also run the Management Company, who own the freehold, and who must look after the communal bits around our flat and all the other flats. Chris has just set up a forum for all us owners (who all have to contribute financially and time-wise to the Management Committee) to discuss the very kind of issues you've raised. The terms of the lease are incredibly vague and at the end of the day we thrash out whether we, the Management Committee, should pay for things like collapsing balconies and rotten sills and overhanging trees, or whether the people who own the flats should pay for them. It's all shades of grey, without any of the excitement that goes with that phrase now. So what I'm saying to you is I don't know, but I think you have a strong case, and should seek legal advice. What a nightmare for you!

 

[plasticpigeon]

I've not been in your situation, but I have encountered bad workmanship that i will have to put right, that insurance company builders carried out before I owned my place . I have resentfully written the cost off, same with crap builders that I employed. It is my opinion that if someone else, particularly a philistine mercenary like your freeholder and former owner is forced to rectify works, there is a very real chance it will end up even worse than it is now. I wonder if there really is a risk of the floor falling in. Unless you do the job yourself, the best thing might be to put the floor boards down and stick your head in the sand.

 

[Flyfisher]

I can't offer any definitive advice but my instinct would be to strongly resist paying for the repairs that were caused by the freeholder before you purchased the lease. Perhaps the freeholder can get the original builder to make the repairs for their faulty workmanship, but I'd resist getting involved as far as possible.

There are a lot of people involved in this, including the leaseholder below you because, as you rightly say, it's their ceiling as well as your floor.

We can all offer opinons but I think Keith's suggestion to seek out a good solicitor experienced in leasehold matters is the best advice. I wouldn't be surprised to find there are established legal remedies for situations such as this. As for the cost, check your household insurance policy for legal exoenses cover.

 

[Nigel Watts]

I am no legal expert, but it sounds very much like the freeholder's responsibility. Your floor is presumably also the ceiling of the flat below. I would have thought that its occupant would have as strong an interest as you in making sure it doesn't cave in. If the freeholder is found not to be liable, or won't pay, then you could offer to share cost with the occupant of the flat below. I did this with my next door neighbour recently when our shared chimney stack was found to be unsafe and in need of rebuilding.

 

[DJH]

Echoing the others views I'd be disinclined to pay, say or agree to anything before taking advice from a solicitor. I reckon if this runs the course the dock is going to be quite crowded.

Doug

 

[Sonyaclegg]

I will discuss this with my business partner as this is his field of expertise and I will post a reply tomorrow. What he does not know about property law would fit on a postage stamp!

 

[Sonyaclegg]

Basically, the freeholder is responsible for the structure of your building and repair. He may attempt to pass the costs onto you and other leaseholders by way of the service charge. However, he may have a cause of action against the contractors for latent defect either under contract or a negligence claim. The time clock for limitation of a case runs from when the discovery of the faulty work was made. 3 yrs for a contract claim. 6 yrs for a negligence claim. Your freeholder may be a little more receptive to doing the remedial work if there is a possibility of a claim against the contractors. You will appreciate this is not formal advice and you should talk this through with your Solicitor, perhaps the one who handled your purchase.

 

[LadyArowana]

Sonya's advice sounds very good, and in line with how repairs etc are handled in our building where the freehold company undertakes structural repairs. In our case all the apartment owners also jointly own the freehold, so costs are handled via the service charge. However, where the freeholder is a totally separate entity I would add that if you believe you are being asked to cover costs that are not your responsibility via this route then you can ultimately make a challenge via the LVT https://www.gov.uk/housing-tribunals/leasehold-valuation-tribunal-changes-to-your-lease

 

[atlasfever]

All,

I would very much like to sincerely thank all of you (Sonya, Joce, Nigel, and the others who sent PM messages.

I believe it has now, somewhat, been resolved. I did read through my lease in detail again, which said that I owned the floor joists up to the ceiling; but, that the freeholder is to maintain the internal walls, timbers, etc. So, in effect, it is a fabric of the building issue, which means it would be borne by the freeholder, and then passed through via service charge. So, I would normally pay a % accordingly; however, the damage was in fact caused by the freeholder. It gets a bit messy b/c it was one of the freeholder family members who also owned the lease to my flat, so a little messy (the official leaseholder of my flat has sold off, though, the guy remains part of the freeholder entity... complex. Anyway, this is my stance, that if I inflicted damage to a timber wall, then why would my neighbour pay for it? If it was something a bit more natural (age, natural causes, etc), then yes, I would pay my % and consider it building maintenance. The unique thing here is that besides some other leases owned by again, the same family, I'm the only non-family member leaseholder. Fun End of the story: They caused it, so I'm not contributing my %, and they can go after their own contractors, etc. And, they agreed (though with a heavy guilt trip that they posed on me). So, the work is going to be done next week. Of course, it's a 2 week minimum delay in my works, but such is life.

Again, thank you all for your feedback. I've never been part of a site like this before and it's great. Unfortunately, I know so little, that I can't feedback much. You guys rock!