First Project - Victorian cottage

[Rapido]

So, all going to plan we should have our first restoration project by this time tomorrow. Its a 1850's Victorian cottage that is in need of total renovation so it's a real blank canvas.

We are on a budget, so certain things will need to be done either as and when, or with cheaper alternatives.

We had a full survey done prior to buying and it pretty much confirmed what we thought needed to be done (everything) but I'm a little concerned about certain aspects of working with older properties.


Roof
The roof needs relaying - there is no insulation. I am concerned that relaying the tiles together with an underlay and insulation may cause issue with damp not escaping? If a breathable membrane is used, is that ok? Is there insulation that doesn't cause problems?

Walls
It is a solid brick construction. In order to aid with bills I was thinking of using insulation on the inside walls, insulated plasterboard maybe - would this cause issues with damp?

Externally, there is some pointing and brick repairs that appears to have been done using cement. Not sure if it is lime cement. If it isn't, should it all be removed and redone with lime cement to prevent damp on internal walls?

There are vent bricks externally. No apparent DPC and typical surveyor recommend an injection of DPC (I didn't check he was versed in old properties).

Floor
Quite a lot of solid quarry tiled floor and one timber floor. Surveyor recommended a damp membrane and then a solid floor laying on top. Will this work to prevent damp coming up or will it push it to the walls?

Skirting on ground floor and first floor are apparently concrete which surveyor thinks was due to damp.

We intend to have composite wood flooring as the covering and victorian tiles in the hall (remember cost is an issue).

Heating
Not sure where to go on this. It's currently Elec heating and off mains gas. Builder has suggested gas tanks but not sure on it. Neighbour has had a GSHP installed as there is a big garden available and he said he is going to get £35k over 5 years back on the RHI scheme. So could maybe do that..otherwise not sure.

As we need to do an extension, thinking of maybe doing underfloor heating - would this affect damp problems if heat is on more than normal?

This will no doubt be the first of many posts - Thanks in advance for the answers.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Congratulations on your purchase. I think the views on this forum will be quite united so I'll start off and I'm sure others will add. A breathable felt under the roof tiles is a good idea. Injection damp proofing is a bad idea. I would leave quarry tiled floors if they are flat but try not to put too much on them that will stop evaporation otherwise they will get wet underneath the floor covering. They will be cold but the time expense and hassle of replacing will never be recouped and it's a shame to risk damage. Plastic membranes under solid floors are not great especially if the walls have no damp proof course (which I suspect is unlikely, are you sure there isn't a slate dpc or blue engineering bricks below a certain level). I can't see any problem with insulated plasterboard but it isn't traditional, but others may know better. Lime and cement are different things!!!!!! Lime mortar and cement mortar are very different, one has lime as the binder and one has cement. Cement pointing can damage old bricks in the event of frost or structural movement in my experience. I don't like it but if the bricks aren't getting spalled because of it, it is probably best to leave it if in good condition. Perhaps it would be good to get the old house repaired before building an extension! I can't comment on the heating I'm afraid.

 

[andrew gayton]

I agree with P.P although I would add that insulated plasterboard etc may cause interstitial condensation leading to saturation of the walling. For a permeable solution prior to lime plastering, try pavatherm/diffutherm/pavadentra etc.

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

Agree with what plasticpigeon said.

The greatest gain in heat saving will come from insulating the loft, and installing a hot tank with integral insulation. After that, the payback goes downhill.

Before the previous owners vanish, ask them for the last eight quarter's fuel bills. That will give you the summer/winter split, and so give you a real pointer as to how much is heating the house and how much is heating water. Your plasterboard wouldn't help with the water, so that probably makes a big difference to whatever saving you might hope for.
Also ask them what temperature they heated the house to. Some people think they should be able to wander around in shirtsleeves in the winter, and at the same time talk about being 'green'. A small increase/reduction in internal temp make a huge difference in running cost. We used to run our gas heating at about 60F (16C in foreign) and wear a wooly.

As regards insulating internal walls, I don't know what you have in the way of original architraves, picture rails, window surrounds, door cases, skirtings (apart from the concrete ones :shock: ) but they would all be destroyed. Do you want a Period Property, or just an insulated box? The rooms would also become smaller.

Well-fitting heavy curtains also make a big difference.

LPG heating is expensive to run. Before you ditch the heating that's there, try it for a winter or two. We moved from a 1920 gas-heated house to a 1620 cottage with storage heaters + woodburners. It takes time to adapt.
Nowadays we wear two woollies.

Quarry tiles are an original feature, composite wood flooring is not. Despite what one might see on television, restoration is about preserving and repairing what's there, not erasing it, however much your builder might like the idea.

Hope it all goes well for you.

Ivor

 

[MatthewC]

Hi Rapido

I think you probably know most of the answers from the way you have phrased your questions! I'll add to the previous comments using my own experience:

Roof
The roof needs relaying - there is no insulation. I am concerned that relaying the tiles together with an underlay and insulation may cause issue with damp not escaping? If a breathable membrane is used, is that ok? Is there insulation that doesn't cause problems?

Breathable membrane is good (and I think required by Building Regs now - permission is needed for relaying a roof) but the question is where you put the insulation - on the joists or between the rafters? I went for the former and made sure that the roof space is well ventilated, as I'm not sure how you can get ventilated rafters with insulation all over them

Walls
It is a solid brick construction. In order to aid with bills I was thinking of using insulation on the inside walls, insulated plasterboard maybe - would this cause issues with damp?

Plasterboard is impervious and can therefore cause damp issues - again, I'm not sure how people get sufficient ventilation behind it.

Externally, there is some pointing and brick repairs that appears to have been done using cement. Not sure if it is lime cement. If it isn't, should it all be removed and redone with lime cement to prevent damp on internal walls?

There are vent bricks externally. No apparent DPC and typical surveyor recommend an injection of DPC (I didn't check he was versed in old properties).

Cement pointing is often done very thinly over lime - if you can break off a small piece which is quite thin, I expect you'll find it's also very hard and grey - that's cement. All it does is to make it look nice for a while, but when it cracks it lets water behind, which then can't escape, and the bricks then crumble and retreat, leaving the pointing proud! Not good, but if it's thin then it will come off very easily; not so if it's deep. Make sure your vent bricks are clear on the inside as well as the outside - mine were blocked with a big lump of concrete!

Floor
Quite a lot of solid quarry tiled floor and one timber floor. Surveyor recommended a damp membrane and then a solid floor laying on top. Will this work to prevent damp coming up or will it push it to the walls?

Yes, it'll push any damp to the walls. The key is to tackle the source of dampness, not the symptom. Breathable plaster (i.e. lime) on the walls, and make sure the rainwater goods are OK, plus that the floor is above the outside ground level by six inches.

As has been said, decide how warm you want to be; in our house you can't complain about the heat unless you are already wearing a jumper! If people want to go around in shirtsleeves in January, I suggest an old house is not for them.

Matthew
(see my blog - blue spot on rght)

 

[Rapido]

Thank you all for your informative replies. We did complete today so I got a chance to look again at the various parts another time...

I understand the need for sensitive restoration and in this situation it will be a case of reverting some horrible choices (modern PVC windows that are mismatched with rottern timber), maintaining some nice features but in some cases making it so we actually want to live in it. The flooring may drop into this section. The quarry tiles really don't do it for us but we would probably swap for some other victorian types and could lay them on top of the quarries.

In some rooms there was a silver foil laid on top of them and then carpets on top and you can see the damp destroyed the foil then made a mess of the carpets. Horrible.

Thanks for the tips on the roof - I'll speak with the roofers on their suggestions and ensure it is breathable membrane and insulation.

Same with the plasterboards, I'll see if he has worked with breathable ones or the Pavatherm products in the past and if they would work - also I'll check if he can do lime plastering. All the rooms need replastering so I might as well look at getting some insulation on them as the neighbour said it can get very cold on them in his similar property.

There are two elec meters which leads me to think it is on a ecomomy 7 system. I'll do some research on it and see if it is in any way efficient option.

Also, we really need to do the extension and it would not make sense to relay the roof and then need to redo it again to mesh with the extension. One so that we can separate the bathroom from a bedroom and two, to make use of the superb views from the rear as there are no windows currently looking over at it.

I'll try to get some photo's put up if it is of interest.

Regards,

Rick

 

[Rapido]

Thank you all for your informative replies. We did complete today so I got a chance to look again at the various parts another time...

I understand the need for sensitive restoration and in this situation it will be a case of reverting some horrible choices (modern PVC windows that are mismatched with rottern timber), maintaining some nice features but in some cases making it so we actually want to live in it. The flooring may drop into this section. The quarry tiles really don't do it for us but we would probably swap for some other victorian types and could lay them on top of the quarries.

In some rooms there was a silver foil laid on top of them and then carpets on top and you can see the damp destroyed the foil then made a mess of the carpets. Horrible.

Thanks for the tips on the roof - I'll speak with the roofers on their suggestions and ensure it is breathable membrane and insulation.

Same with the plasterboards, I'll see if he has worked with breathable ones or the Pavatherm products in the past and if they would work - also I'll check if he can do lime plastering. All the rooms need replastering so I might as well look at getting some insulation on them as the neighbour said it can get very cold on them in his similar property.

There are two elec meters which leads me to think it is on a ecomomy 7 system. I'll do some research on it and see if it is in any way efficient option.

Also, we really need to do the extension and it would not make sense to relay the roof and then need to redo it again to mesh with the extension. One so that we can separate the bathroom from a bedroom and two, to make use of the superb views from the rear as there are no windows currently looking over at it.

I'll try to get some photo's put up if it is of interest.

Regards,

Rick

 

[plasticpigeon]

Yes photos would be great. Do you not like quarries in general, or just the ones that are in your house? It is a shame as they are an attractive and desirable floor finish for many.
people.

 

[skier-hughes]

If the views are to the North, this will be why there are no windows, adding them will cool your house.

 

[Rapido]

Hi All,

I've posted a few pics that were taken by the surveyor. There are loads more but these are the tiles, cement and roof. I can't figure out if that is cement cement or lime - I'm guessing the former.

You can see the tiles are very plain. If there was some type of pattern then it would be ok - the neighbour has just had their hall done in some great looking pattern - Milton is it?

Heres the pics: http://rapidohouse.imgur.com/all/

 

[Rapido]

If the views are to the North, this will be why there are no windows, adding them will cool your house.

Forgot to add that the views/garden are WSW facing. All the windoes are to the north with a couple on the south.

 

[88v8]

... the neighbour has just had their hall done in some great looking pattern - Milton is it?

Heres the pics: http://rapidohouse.imgur.com/all/

Minton. Yes, that can look very good. Encaustic tiles - Minton - need to be laid in a solid base, usually cement :shock: whereas some of your quarries might presently just be sitting on earth.

Your photo album is Private.

Ivor

 

[Rapido]

ah, Minton - thats the one. They do look very nice.

Sorry about the pics, I've set it to public now.

 

[MatthewC]

Thanks for the photos. I'm as certain as one can be from photographs that your pointing is indeed cement. It's quite sad that there are people (even professionals) who will spend time doing such a wrong job on a house!

Your roof space does not look useable so I would lay some breathable insulation (Thermafleece or similar) between the joists, rather than mess around between the rafters. NB I can see tiles (slate?) in the roof but what are those lighter coloured patches? Has someone tried to add something to the underside?

You've got some very nice tiles near that door (much better than mine!) and I would leave them alone initially in order to see what happens. When my house dried out (after sorting the rainwater goods, the high ground and the holes in the roof), my priorities changed - if you are short of cash then don't spend until you are sure.

Matthew

 

[TheForge]

Your roof space does not look useable so I would lay some breathable insulation (Thermafleece or similar) between the joists, rather than mess around between the rafters. NB I can see tiles (slate?) in the roof but what are those lighter coloured patches? Has someone tried to add something to the underside?

I thought the same. Just be careful that the stuff on the underside of the slate is not sprayed on asbestos containing lagging as that sort of insulation often contains the more dangerous blue or even brown asbestos.

 

[DJH]

That's lime mortar applied under the slates acting as both draft proofing and fixing for the slates... not at all unusual and quite common, but wear a mask if it's disturbed at all.

Doug

 

[Flyfisher]

I suspect Doug is correct about the lime mortar.

Part of our roof had lime mortar supported on reeds under the pantiles, though in our case I doubt it was for insulation purposes and I suspect it was the equivalent of a modern breathable membrane to waterproof the attic space, especially given the generally poor fit of handmade pantiles.

Over the years a lot of the mortar had crumbled away, allowing water ingress in some places. I removed all the tiles and added a modern breathable membrane, re-battened and replaced the tiles. All done with LBC so it must be a generally acceptable repair.

I didn't bother with trying to insulate between the rafters though because it would probably have disturbed what remained of the reed and lime and the attic space was not particularly useable anyway. So I insulated the attic floor instead and it made a massive difference.

 

[Rapido]

Hi - Thanks for the replies, I'll add some more photos in due course.

Great call on the insulation - Will look to put in the joist rather than the rafters and just put a breathable membrane under the tiles. The tiles are a great bullnose stye, look really good but require smaller battening.

I had wondered about the white stuff on the bottom so good to hear what it is.

Also, decorating like the tiles will be the last thing to be done - cost and drying out demand it


Cheers again.

 

[Rapido]

Hi - Can anyone recommend a carpenter in the Cheshire West area that could comment on the repair of wooden windows (There are a few still left in)?

I'm ideally looking for personal recommendations as they are usually the best

Thanks

R

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

I'm whimpering here. Please don't hack up or cover over any of your quarry tiles until you have lived in the house for a while in clean conditions (ie not a building site) and see how you feel about them later. They are in lovely condition. I would kill to find floors like that under my carpets, but although I am hacking up 1960's bitumen like tar damp proofing (2" thick!) and finding tiles that I think beautiful, they are in way worse condition than yours. I'm keeping mine. They are drying out really well now the gunk and carpets are off them. That silver stuff will scrape off with a paint scraper. The first thing I'd do is junk all the floor coverings and let it dry. Clean it (scrub on hands and knees may be necessary first time) and then see what it's like.

Minton style tiles were for posher houses. Quarries for cottages. I love mine. But I didn't necessarily love them when I moved in.

Same with the heating. We moved from a house with gas heating to a cottage with open fires and storage heaters. Some of the heaters were antique! We replaced those with much improved modern ones and now we love how warm the house is all the time. The wood burning stove heats the core of the house. An open fire does the dining room. The storage heaters are kept on low settings, but because they are always on and always topped up (we have Heatwise which is brilliant) the whole house always strikes warm when you come in. Neighbouring cottages with central heating only feel warm with the heating on. When it's off, they are freezing. Ours is one of the snuggest cottages I've been in round here and it's also the most basic. No plaster board. No double glazing, no insulation in the walls, no insulation under the solid floors. Snug as a bug in a rug.

We were forced to live in the cottage as it was for 12 months after we bought it before we had it rewired and I'm so glad we did because when we moved in I thought we were going to do a lot to it to "improve" it. By the time we'd been here a year we realised how much we loved it as it was and we've only removed nasty modern additions and repaired the rest as it was.