First period property purchased : now what

[haf]

Hi everyone and as the title suggests, I just bought a grade 2 listed property in derelict state at auction. The good news is that the seller has already got approved planning for a modern extension linking to the main house through a new foyer and also they have got approval for a load of internal renovations to the period property. These seem pretty comprehensive with lots of detail on how and what can be done inc adding an onsite to the main bedroom so there doesn't seem to be lots of restrictions
I have a couple of questions to get me started on whats possible and no doubt will have to contact planning to get clarity.
1. The property is isolated with 0.75acre plot so are there any restrictions on me building a shed for example i.e do the normal PD rules apply for outbuildings?
2. Are there restrictions on things like solar panels or ground source heat pumps? I should be ok to add panels to new extension but not sure about the original house.

 

[Flyfisher]

Congratulations! The 'now what?' question is easily answered . . . start spending money!

More seriously, it looks like an interesting project and will, hopefully, be great fun creating a wonderful home

As for your two questions:
1. My understanding is that there is no PD for listed buildings, strictly speaking you'll need LBC for anything within the curtilage. Defining the curtilage can sometimes be tricky ut I'd guess in this case that it will include the entire plot. Only the local council conservation officer can give a definitive answer. But with such a large plot I doubt you'd have problems obtaining formal LBC, though it will depend on what sort of 'shed' you wish to build and how close to the house you wish to build it. Tbh, if it was a clearly 'temporary' wooden shed sited well away from the house then I'd be tempted to just build it anyway. Otoh, for a more substantial brick shed under a tiled roof then I would at least want to discuss the plans with the CO.

2. As for solar PV, again there is no PD for listed buildings but, even disregarding that, it would be a travesty to deface the original roof with PV panels. Besides, there doesn't look to be a particularly large area of roof for a PV array (which is part of the charm of the house in the first place). I'd be very surprised if consent wasn't given for PV panels on the roof of the new addition. Having said that, with 0.75 acres to choose from, it might be worth considering a ground-mounted PV array. Obviously much depends on the apspect and tree coverage but there's no intrinsic reason why they have to be mounted on the roof. I have a 20-panel ground array facing directly south and not visible from the house. Thinking I would need LBC because of the curtilage rules, I consulted my CO who visited the site and confimed he had no problems with it as far as listing was concerned but explained that because we're listed there is no permitted development so planning permission would be required. But he also said given that the panels were not visible from any other dwellings he wouldn't bother (not that I'm quoting him on that of course! )

As for a GSHP, I can't see any problem with laying the necessary pipework for such a system as far as any planning consents are concerned. It's basically just a lot of invisible trenching works and will therefore have zero impact on the listed building or its curtilage. I certainly didn't worry about the 100m trench I dug for my PV array cables.

Ultimately, it's all about sensitivity to the existing building and its setting.

 

[lizziecupcakes]

It’s gorgeous!!
What now? Make it yours. Out your stamp on it. Spend a lot of time in the design and planning stage. Think things over and over. Iterate.

 

[Cubist]

Hello and Welcome,

A few questions if I may together with some observations and thoughts along the way: -

1. Grade 2 or 2Star?
   1. The latter might explain why a detailed schedule of internal works was mandated.
   2. For internal works Its frequently less rigorous for G2 but your CO may be a Tatar for detail.
2. What is the principal building material of the house - brick/stone/timber frame?
3. What is the orientation at the front of the property?
4. Where are the boundaries of the land and are you legally responsible for maintenance of all of them?
   1. Are any trees screening the house on or within these boundaries?
   2. Anything beyond that line and for which you are not legally responsible puts you at the mercy of the neighbour.
5. Is the property visible from a public highway/footpath/bridleway or other nearby properties?
   1. Our place is almost entirely invisible from any quarter but our local CO still gives me grief.
6. Looks like the previous owner was a bit canny as some of the groundworks for the extension has been begun but when was PA granted and is there an approved record of inspection issued by the BC for the groundworks?
   1. Likely not a problem but usually PP is limited to 5 years after approval and can lapse/expire if theres no official record confirming work has started on file.
7. Flyfisher has already commented regarding the shed, solar array and your answers to the above may inform further questions.
8. Both GS and AS Heat Pumps may be problematic for a variety of reasons.
   1. GSHPs are require the siting of a quite large chunk of above ground machinery near the house. Siting this equipment may prove challenging given the proposed layout of the property.
   2. ASHPs are less bulky but must be sited next to the walls of the building and more than one may be required to meet your future needs. Again the layout of the property may prove problematic.
9. Is water to the house served by mains supplies from an external public supplier?
   1. If not your would be wise to get the water tested as soon as practicable. This must be done every five years through the local council.

Enough for now. Enjoy the house AND your bank balance while you can.
Cheers,
Cubist

 

[Lacan07]

Hi everyone and as the title suggests, I just bought a grade 2 listed property in derelict state at auction. The good news is that the seller has already got approved planning for a modern extension linking to the main house through a new foyer and also they have got approval for a load of internal renovations to the period property. These seem pretty comprehensive with lots of detail on how and what can be done inc adding an onsite to the main bedroom so there doesn't seem to be lots of restrictions
I have a couple of questions to get me started on whats possible and no doubt will have to contact planning to get clarity.
1. The property is isolated with 0.75acre plot so are there any restrictions on me building a shed for example i.e do the normal PD rules apply for outbuildings?
2. Are there restrictions on things like solar panels or ground source heat pumps? I should be ok to add panels to new extension but not sure about the original house.

View attachment 15258
View attachment 15259
View attachment 15260

What next?

Buy a paper shredder and feed loads of money into it.

 

[Janela]

It looks like it could become a really attractive house.
Where to start pehaps depends on how much you know already about repairing old properties.
The longer you can take to read, research and reflect the less mistakes you will make.
Be wary whose advice you trust implicitly. Just because they are "experienced" doesn't mean they have the only solution.
It's your house so make sure you follow those first dreams that launched you on this (never-ending and expensive) venture.

Think: "what can possibly be saved" rather than replacing.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.....

 

[haf]

Wow, thats some great and detailed feedback so many thanks and I will try to add a bit more information/feedback best I can
1. I am now clear on the point that I need to discuss anything 'significant' with the CO and seek approval for majority of things not already approved by planning. I am also fully expecting to burn some cash.
2. I expect to take the best part of a year to research and plan the work and work schedule as well as identify skilled tradesmen etc and expect 2-3 years before any thought of moving in.
3. My first action is to get a detailed structural survey to figure out if there is anything I need to do around the roof, walls, floor etc as I would need to get this sort of stuff all sorted before doing anything to the house. This includes any changes needed to the house to support a ground heat pump if I decide thats the best option
4. My plan is to be as eco friendly as poss and also as self sufficient- hence looking at solar etc
5. My plan is to build a good sized brick shed in a corner of the plot which will basically be used to house my tools and materials for doing the works for first couple of years until the place becomes habitable
6. I have done major refurbs and extensions so pretty experienced but never done a Grade 2 building

In answer to the list of questions from Cubist

1. Grade 2 or 2Star? Just Grade 2.
2. What is the principal building material of the house - brick/stone/timber frame? Brick with render
3. What is the orientation at the front of the property? Not sure what that means but the second picture I the front entrance to the property and site
4. Where are the boundaries of the land and are you legally responsible for maintenance of all of them?
   1. Are any trees screening the house on or within these boundaries? see picture below but I am responsible for putting a fence around the site and I guess I will look after my side. The lodge is part of a huge estate and the estate owning trust are responsible for everything else. The boundary on the A-Road side is owned by Highways dept
   2. Anything beyond that line and for which you are not legally responsible puts you at the mercy of the neighbour.
5. Is the property visible from a public highway/footpath/bridleway or other nearby properties? No not visible from anywhere and no sign of any other properties within walking distance
   1. Our place is almost entirely invisible from any quarter but our local CO still gives me grief.
6. Looks like the previous owner was a bit canny as some of the groundworks for the extension has been begun but when was PA granted and is there an approved record of inspection issued by the BC for the groundworks? The planning was around 2021 and the foundation was laid to ensure that work-being-started test was passed with building regs. My understanding is that I can take as long as a I like to finish? I will followup once I have the 'keys'
   1. Likely not a problem but usually PP is limited to 5 years after approval and can lapse/expire if theres no official record confirming work has started on file.
7. Flyfisher has already commented regarding the shed, solar array and your answers to the above may inform further questions.
8. Both GS and AS Heat Pumps may be problematic for a variety of reasons.
   1. GSHPs are require the siting of a quite large chunk of above ground machinery near the house. Siting this equipment may prove challenging given the proposed layout of the property.
   2. ASHPs are less bulky but must be sited next to the walls of the building and more than one may be required to meet your future needs. Again the layout of the property may prove problematic.
9. Is water to the house served by mains supplies from an external public supplier? This is interesting as the original water supply (which came from the estate) has been cutoff at the main house. The Trust has had a new 50mm mains water pipe installed around their properties and the sale conditions include granting me access to take a connection from that pipe along a specific route to get to me and I will be responsible for that pipe. It looks like my pipe will run through a couple of fields that run along the back of the property so I am hoping this won't be a complicated process. To be fair, the trust that sold they property are being super helpful and accommodating which is good but my solicitor has ensured I have an easement (or whatever the tech term is) for a number of things such as the water. I am not at all sure if I will get a water bill or not as the connection has nothing to do with the authorities.
   1. If not your would be wise to get the water tested as soon as practicable. This must be done every five years through the local council.

I have loads to learn and figure out hence happy to take the first year to not do anything other than sort out the fundamentals such as water/electricity and the structural integrity of the house. I have requested contact details for various people from teh Trust estate manager to the architect, planner etc who have been involved so that should help get things moving. The Trust took a belt and braces approach to the auction legal pack and there are some 40-50 documents from every kind of survey to detailed plans on all the works needed. They included a detailed doc on the history of the property inc at what stages the building was modified over its history

I will add an aerial picture as well as a YouTube video I made walking around the property (assuming that allowed on this forum) :

e

 

[Kearn]

Even not living in it, being around the property over 4 seasons will help guide your plans massively.

 

[Cubist]

Thanks for your reply and the additional data it included. When asked about the houses orientation of the property my interest was in its layout and that of the land around it to the cardinal compass points. The map included with your reply suggests the site roughly parallels the A429 which crudely runs North to South and its fair to perhaps conclude the front of the house faces South.

Unfortunately the layout of the site and the status of the house suggests that roof mounted PV panels may not be an option unless the planned extension is the same height as the main house. Also, it appears that the property is surrounded by many large and mature trees only a few of which may be within your new boundary. The landowners on the other side of those boundaries will possess all authority concerning their treatment of removal. This then leaves you with a plot of land behind the house and the proposed extension that MAY be large enough to allow installation of a GS array BUT its siting could be compromised by the new Water Supply service depending on its route to the property and its efficacy could be compromised because the ground itself may be largely overshadowed by the trees to the East and West and the house to the South. In any event you would not want to reduce the height of the trees to West as these will be operating to reduce road-noise.

Regarding the water supply. An easement is a contractual provision of rights of access for limited and defined purposes and in this instance to cover your need to install the pipework to install the pipework from the water source to your house and to maintain this. A question arises though concerning Who owns and controls that water supply? Also, does that same supplier also provide and maintain waste and foul water drainage from the house?

Is it safe to assume the Trust you mention is a private Family Trust? If so, keep your guard up.

 

[haf]

Unfortunately the layout of the site and the status of the house suggests that roof mounted PV panels may not be an option unless the planned extension is the same height as the main house. Also, it appears that the property is surrounded by many large and mature trees only a few of which may be within your new boundary.

Regarding the water supply. An easement is a contractual provision of rights of access for limited and defined purposes and in this instance to cover your need to install the pipework to install the pipework from the water source to your house and to maintain this. A question arises though concerning Who owns and controls that water supply? Also, does that same supplier also provide and maintain waste and foul water drainage from the house?

Is it safe to assume the Trust you mention is a private Family Trust? If so, keep your guard up.

1. Yes I am thinking that solar panels on the single story extension is the only realistic option and given the trees surrounding the house, it may not get enough sun to be worthwhile. I will look into it some more and drop the idea if it seems like its not going to give the desired value.
2. The 'Trust' are effectively the supplier and are only providing mains water connection, there is no sewage as the previous tenants had a septic tank buried somewhere - I haven't spotted where yet but fully expect to have to replace it.
3. Yes I accept there is some risk with the water being fully dependent on the trust but I will have to take my chances due to there being no obvious alternatives..

 

[Cubist]

Yes I accept there is some risk with the water being fully dependent on the trust but I will have to take my chances due to there being no obvious alternatives.

It may be worth considering a borehole. The cost of laying a pipe of indeterminate length to provide mains water supply service only from a third party could be a valuable contribution to the cost of a borehole that would give you an independent supply AND be a source of Ground Heat.

 

[haf]

Thanks Cubist - I never even considered a bore hole and have no idea of costs on either option currently - but will def include that as an option - especially if it also helps with heating. I am learning stuff all the time so much appreciated

 

[eezageeza]

Thanks Cubist - I never even considered a bore hole and have no idea of costs on either option currently - but will def include that as an option - especially if it also helps with heating. I am learning stuff all the time so much appreciated

We have a private water supply from a borehole. It's certainly worth checking this as an option - assuming the trust are going to be making some sort of charge for the water supply, you may find a private supply cheaper in the long run. And you'll have the peace of mind of not relying on a third party for your water.

 

[Cubist]

Thanks Cubist - I never even considered a bore hole and have no idea of costs on either option currently - but will def include that as an option - especially if it also helps with heating. I am learning stuff all the time so much appreciated

My apologies, I'm afraid I misled you. My suggestion that you could use a single borehole for both water and heat extraction was based on information I gathered some years ago when I was considering using our extant borehole as a source of heat energy. It appears that thinking has moved on and presently the guidance is that this should not be done as geothermal extraction boreholes typically need to be deeper than those needed for water.

Presently a borehole might cost something in the order of £30-40 per metre to drill. You may therefore find that the costs associated with laying a new water supply pipe from the Trusts facilities, when added to the cost for the excavation work for a Ground Source array, might similar to that for drilling Two boreholes.

 

[Flyfisher]

We have a private water supply from a borehole. It's certainly worth checking this as an option - assuming the trust are going to be making some sort of charge for the water supply, you may find a private supply cheaper in the long run. And you'll have the peace of mind of not relying on a third party for your water.

Is it allowed for a 3rd party to provide a water supply? I ask because I recall a change in the legislation some years ago whereby shared foul drains had to be adopted by the regional water companies, but I don't know if this extended to primary water supplies.

But whatever the final arrangement, it's important to know the demarcation point where responsibility for the supply pipes changes. I'd guess this would be at the property boundary but it will be important to know who has the repair liability in case of any leaks etc. It might also be a good location for master stopcock. Also, is it allowable to install a water meter in a shared supply? Obviously it's physically possible but there might be contractual complications regarding the trust being a supplier and/or any charges they make being outside of the regulatory framework.

 

[haf]

Is it allowed for a 3rd party to provide a water supply? I ask because I recall a change in the legislation some years ago whereby shared foul drains had to be adopted by the regional water companies, but I don't know if this extended to primary water supplies.
But whatever the final arrangement, it's important to know the demarcation point where responsibility for the supply pipes changes. I'd guess this would be at the property boundary but it will be important to know who has the repair liability in case of any leaks etc. It might also be a good location for master stopcock. Also, is it allowable to install a water meter in a shared supply? Obviously it's physically possible but there might be contractual complications regarding the trust being a supplier and/or any charges they make being outside of the regulatory framework.

This whole area is a bit messy and I am on teh hook for the water pipe from where its connected to the trusts main pipe, all the way through a few fields and onto my property so if there are leaks then its my responsibility. I have only just got the property so have not had a chat with the trust to see the actual route in the flesh and the work involved so its early days. Similarly there is no mention of any water meter or bills as the Trust has a huge estate so could be they are not bothered about giving me a bit of water.. At leat I now know there is an alternative option with the borehole so I will add this to my list of things to investigate. If the trust water connection is in the low thousands (ie dig a field and lay a pipe) then I may well do that regardless - even if it ends up being a backup..
I am slowly building a list of infrastructure and structural stuff I need to discuss with the conservation office type person to see whats do-able from the listed building perspective. For example there are numerous rickety wooden sheds and large wooden chicken coup so I would like to know what my options are in terms of replacing outbuildings.

 

[Cubist]

Is it allowed for a 3rd party to provide a water supply?

I know of a couple of cottages near me that at one time did but they were originally 'Tied' to the farmland and Manor House owned by local 'gentry'. I've no idea if the landowner still has any rights to charge for the supply assuming it still exists and is used.

 

[Flyfisher]

Random thought - given the proximity to an A-road, is there any chance there's a water main running along it? Might be worth contacting the relevant water company and ask them how much they would charge for a mains water connection.

 

[haf]

Random thought - given the proximity to an A-road, is there any chance there's a water main running along it? Might be worth contacting the relevant water company and ask them how much they would charge for a mains water connection.

Unfortunately the infotrack water and sewage search report came back with pretty much nothing on the map anywhere close by in terms of water/sewage/etc. I will ask Severn Trent anyway and see what they say.

As an aside I am having a go at seeing if HMRC will refund my the SDLT due to the property being severely uninhabitable with no utilities whatsoever as well as being 'derelict' but am advised its likely to be a 'no' as the property was habited some 7-8 years ago and had these services - and thats enough for my request to be kicked out. Will give it a go regardless on the off chance it pays off but unlikely I will go to court etc

 

[Lacan07]

My neighbours have a well right outside their side door and they seriously considered going 'off grid' but apparently BC / local council said no.