Fircroft Chronicles - It's That Time Again

[Cubist]

They say that time flies when you're enjoying yourself and I have to admit that since acquiring Fircroft it certainly has. The last eight years seem to have flown and, looking back, much of the pleasure the First Lady and I have enjoyed has derived from the restoration and enhancement projects the old place has demanded and deserved. These, when added to the house and gardens in their peacefully bucolic surroundings, repeatedly conspire, seemingly, to make our clocks tick faster. Of course this evokes some mild concern that there is less ahead than there is behind and, short of checking whether the old water well across the road just happens to be the fabled Fountain of Youth, one has little choice but to just get on with it. Nothing to be done about it so there's no point grumbling.

That said, and despite my normally sunny and outgoing disposition, I do get severely irritated and depressed by the harbingers of doom that seem to show up to remind me that all in the world may not be so rosy as I would prefer. One such arrived today.

I speak of course of that thrice damned communique from Satans first lieutenants - the Home Insurance Renewal Notice. Odd isn't it how the sound made by that thing hitting the doormat gets louder every year in direct proportion to the demanded fee rather than the paperwork it includes?

So now I'm damned for the next month to hunt down and capture that most elusive of all prey - a range of credible and mutually competitive (reasonable is not a term understand by most underwriters) quotations that fall within the brackets defined by the eye-watering at one extreme and those where the premium is paid directly to a bank in Lagos at the other.

Now for most people it is a simple matter of jumping onto the inter-web and filling out a few forms with the likes of Go Compare or ConfuseddotCom to help us to at least sort the wheat from the chaff. Sadly my experience of these enterprises has not been positive inasmuch that many of their recommendations seem to come from outfits to the right or left of the brackets I spoke of earlier or from those whose policies contain many more 'Get of Jail Free Cards' than all the Monopoly games sold in the UK - ever.

Why so, you may ask. Consider, Oak Timber Frame with Plaster Infill Panels, Thatched Roof, Wood-burner driven central heating and Listed Building to boot. If you are charitably minded, or maybe of similar affliction, you may sympathise and perhaps be able to help with my quest?

Provided I have not bored the socks off you with the above any suggestions you can contribute to the following challenging conundrums would be very gratefully received.

Insurers/Brokers - Are there any at all you would recommend I contact or conversely avoid like the plague?

Re-Build Costs - Has anyone found a meaningful and reliable calculator, tool or rule of thumb that can produce a sensible Re-build Cost Estimate? So far the ones I have found produce numbers so far apart they look like government projects estimates and actuals.

Dumb Requirements - Thus far all of our insurers have required us to have a suitable(?) hose pipe permanently connected to an exterior tap, presumably so that we can at least damp down the thatch in the event of a fire. However, our water is drawn from a borehole and is distributed via a gravity fed system so output from the hosepipe is unlikely to reach even the first floor windows! Have you got any Dumb Requirements from you insurer to share?

Ah well, where would we all be without the Financial Services Industry - answers on postcard please?

 

[Flyfisher]

I, and I’m sure many others on here, share your pain.

I’d suggest trying NFU. We’re also mostly timber frame with all that goes with it though we are fortunate not to have thatch, so I can’t comment on how NFU treats thatched properties. They do, however, seem to understand a little bout old houses and don’t throw a wobbly if you don’t have alarms, window locks or even smoke alarms (a failing I eventually rectified but not one that seemed to affect their premium).

Re-build costs are a nightmare. I found a calculator online but it wouldn’t give any results for old houses, ‘old’ I think was anything before WW1 and even then it had to be brick and tile, somforget using it for timber frame and thatch. My rebuild estimate came from our specialist surveyor, though I suspect he might as well have used a large cauldron, various animal innards and the eye of a newt. The figure was about twice the market value where’s our previous 1950s brick and tile house rebuild figure was about 1/3rd market value, though I suspect even that would depend a great deal on the area of the country in which you live. I reckon ours was 1/3rd market value because it was in the stupidly expensive Home Counties, but who knows?

I would say that the most important thing, ok one of them, would be to confirm - in writing - your insurers attitude to an underestimated rebuild figure. We’ve discussed this before but the risk is that an insurer might adjust a claim if the property is deemed to be underinsured and thus only pay out a percentage of any claim. For example, a property is insured for a rebuild cost of, say, £500k and is completely (or significantly) destroyed. The rebuild costs turn out to be £1m so the insurance company deems you to be 50% underinsured and so will only pay 50% of the insured value, ie 50% of £500k = £250k. Personally I think such a thing is criminal but I undertstand it happens!

For this reason I specifically asked NFU about my rebuild estimate, what would happen if it turned out to be too low and what would happen in the event of a large claim. The local office had to check with their head office but they confirmed that they would always pay out in full UP TO the amount insured. So, if a property is insured for £500k and was totally lost, NFU would pay out £500k. Sure, if the actual rebuild cost turned out to be higher than that then the insured would lose out, but only because they underinsured, not because the NFU would reduce their payout below the insured amount. My understanding is that not all insurers behave in this way, so check very carefully!

So, based on this, one approach to estimating a rebuild value might be to use a figure that you know would be sufficient to build another suitable property on the same site if the original was completely lost - after all we’re not just talking about a property but also somewhere to live and should the worst happen we’d all need enough to build something new or move somewhere else, so perhaps think of that when considering a rebuild figure.

Final thought. I’ve heard it said that when it comes to listed properties the ‘worst case’ (financially) is not necessarily a complete loss but a ‘significnt’ loss, eg half burning down. This is because a total loss cannot really be rebuilt except as a pastiche, a modern copy of the former original that is now sadly lost forever, so the listing authorities may not insist on a ‘replica’, whereas a ‘half’ destroyed property can probably be restored by expert craftsmen at considerable expense, quite possibly at a greater cost than building anew, and the listing authorities will likely insist on that course of action, regardless of the cost.

Hmm, that’s not really ‘on a postcard’ is it?

 

[livias]

I solved the rebuild cost problem by getting NFUs own surveyor to come up with a value. To get this i had to guarantee to stay with them for 7 years but as their price was 2/3 of the next quote i took the risk. (And 17 years later they are still competitive) Each year i get them to tell me what % uplift to add to the rebuild value

I dont have thatch though

 

[eezageeza]

Yet another vote for the NFU - proper old school insurers with local offices, staff who will visit, and a genuine desire to help, and pay out (rather than seek reasons not to!).

 

[noj]

We ended up using 'Intelligent Insurance' https://www.intelligentinsurance.co.uk/ last year for our timber frame and weatherboard cottage, with woodburner (tiled roof) and they were a lot less than Lark and NFU. Re-build was a simple £1,000,000 and £100,000 for the contents which made it fairly painless.

No security requirements (it's not easy fitting a 5 lever mortice lock into a 20mm thick plank door...) but they did specifiy a fire extinguisher in the kitchen and a minimum of two smoke alarms.

But we've just had the renwal notice and it's gone up by nearly 25% so it may be time to look around again?

 

[88v8]

We're with County Thatch https://www.county-insurance.co.uk/landing-page/county-thatch/ and have been for seven years.
They used to be uber-competitive, even cheap, but at the last renewal it was +30%, due, they said, to woodburner fires. The premium has doubled in the seven years, although to an extent that's inflation.

No requirement for a connected hose, sensible as that seems, but there are various hoops to be jumped relating to extinguishers and the dreaded electrical cert and chimney height.
Foolishly, they don't insist on a flue thermometer - as I've pointed out to them, there must be plenty of stove owners who don't realise there is such a thing as Too Hot.
I believe they will want a chimney/extinguisher survey within the first 12 months - they paid for the last one and sent us a copy.
They have what seems to be the usual requirement for a biannual chimney sweep.

I don't jump through all their hoops so making a claim might be tricky, and after 40+ years with nary a claim I thought of not renewing, but in the end habit won out, for this year.

Rebuild costs... when we bought the cottage, our (old buildings) surveyor gave a figure considerably lower than the purchase price, and we've vaguely inflated that over the years. As FF says, the worst case would be a partial.
If in doubt, bump it up a bit.

Ivor

 

[Tc345]

This is a really interesting thread and Flyfisher's comments regarding rebuild costs are very thought provoking and insightful. It's easy to forget that rebuild costs are exactly that and not some abstract figure that insurers just like to have, hence the importance of taking 'expert' advice from some sort of surveyor and then using that advice to inform a more personal opinion.

Our house is one of the easier listed buildings to insure given its largely Georgian and so bricks, mortar and slate. But it is listed and we have a lot of clunch and flint in our garden walls and outbuildings so there are differences to the norm. With this in mind I did the usual internet aggregator search this year and based on feedback in threads here we seriously considered a quote from LV. It was competitive and maybe 20% cheaper than our NFU renewal. On balance we decided that a large part of the purpose of insurance is piece of mind. With that in mind being able to call/email the same contact at the local NFU office (just 5 miles away) coupled with my parents 30+ years of positive experience (listed house and farm business) with the NFU is worth the premium.

So, another vote for NFU but your circumstances are very different and more complex than ours. Certainly worth a good chat with your local office.

 

[tobydog]

Another thumbs up for NFU although I do go to war with them every year over premium increases. Alas, they got wise to my tactics this year.

The house is grade II listed, 17C, timber framed, thatched, and has a wood burner. That's a Full House as far as insurers are concerned. I do look around at other options but get caught out by the height of the chimney or the height of close neighbouring trees. NFU don't seem to fuss over those things. I can't change the chimney height (even shorter now we've just had the ridge done) so that takes out some insurer options. Annoyingly, just after I renewed with NFU this year, the very close 40ft neighbouring holly trees got blown down and landed on the owners house. I shouldn't laugh ( :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol but that now ends a long story and opens up further insurance options next year.

I have just had a 'compulsory' NFU survey which went very well. Only suggestion was two larger fire extinguishers. I went for water mist but didn't realise until they arrived just how large three litre extinguisher actually are. The next electrical check is not due until 2020 so I'll have to sort that for NFU if I'm still with them.

The rebuild cost is a pain. Very few surveyors seem to want to do them. The NFU surveyor said he would try and do something for me in his report but never did.

I have to get the chimney / flue cleaned each year although it happens anyway because of the pesky nesting jackdaws who love our chimney pots. You need several smoke alarms including one in the loft. Also check on any restrictions you might have for non-ducted cabling in the loft. When I laid insulation a few years back I made sure, as best I could, that all the wires were on top of the insulation. Apart from the high power shower cable it's all low usage stuff but check the small print of other insurers to ensure that cables don't have to be in metal ducting to prevent nibbling by mice. I also changed the down-lighters in the bathroom to LED recently so that helps take away another potential fire risk.

 

[Cubist]

Many thanks to all respondents thus far – seems I struck a chord. Your experiences, advice and suggestions are most welcome and I will be following through.

We understood when we took this old place on that the financial burden wold be more significant than for a more modern and therefore conventional building so no surprise really - bar the sharp intake of breath at the size of the premium increase. We are currently insured by County, like Ivor, and have been for all but a couple of the last eight years. Frankly it was this year’s 30% premium increase that provoked my plea to you all.

The local NFU office have very promptly been in touch to get the ball rolling with them. That said, I expect I'll be trawling through some others, including Intelligent – thanks Noj, as well to see how competitive the market is.

I must admit though that what really drives me to despair is the hunt through the policy fine print to identify all the ‘Get Out of Jail Free Cards’. Too often I have found additional clauses that are not listed in the Exceptions or Conditions sections or significantly modify those that are to the insurers benefit. The most memorable, echoed in Flyfisher’s contribution, concerning the ‘Proportional Payout’ resulting from understatement of the Re-build Costs!

What is equally frustrating is that every year I seem to have to make some modification or enhancement to the house simply to comply with new or revised conditions. These have so far included, in no particular order: -
• Fitting window locks all round.
• Installed Fire Extinguishers on each floor and the kitchen – plus Fire Blanket of course.
• Replacing rim locks with BS approved deadlocks – including making oak boxes to house the lock and keep so that they could be fitted to a 25mm plank and ledger door.
• Installing metal back boxes to all wall lights fitted to the timber frame.
• Replaced all the Halogen ceiling lighting in the bathroom with Fire Resistant LED lights.
• Added fire retardant covers in the loft space for the LED lights.
• Cut down threatening trees.
• Installed smoke alarms on both floors and the following year replaced these with a ‘networked’ installation to include the loft.
• And more…..

Seems to me the underwriters think we suffer from idle hands and need to be kept on our toes. Or is that a distraction ploy used while they filch the contents of our pockets?

I’ll let you all know if a I come across anything that may be helpful, in particular the Rebuild Costs issue.

 

[Kearn]

Maybe not in the usual suspects list, but we are insured with Hiscox, who aren't as expensive as some may think. We've had contents for over a decade and building also for the last 5 years. We aren't thatched, but mostly c.1600 timber frame and early 1700s Georgian brick.

A few claims have been made over the years, never with a quibble - although not of the scale we all worry about. Bikes being stolen - replaced like model for brand new, bathroom leak which was not identifed in the end but meant a full rip out and replace - asked for a single email quote and promptly popped a cheque in the post to the tune of a complete new bathroom, kit plus fitting costs.

For buildings, they have recently changed their policy on rebuild costs which is heloful as I believed ours to be too low. I don't have the precise details to hand, but with caveats, it is unlimited.

In terms of the handcuffs required to insure, they weren't really forceful on anything. Appreciated that our old windows did not have modern confirming locks on them, and we simply noted it rather than trying to change anything.
We're also technically within 200m as the crow flies from the Thames which they questioned at the start and mentioned extra premiums. I suggested they visit, given our village has been here for over a 1000 years and they were sensible enough back then to build at the top of the hill rather than in the flood plain. We'll see Noah and his ark floating by before we get wet feet! Other insurers were too limiting too even consider a premium as they simply stated over the phone, that we were close to a water source and a major food risk!

Well worth a chat, they've always been really helpful and knowledgeable on the phone.

 

[Cubist]

Thanks Kearn, I'll check to see if they will cover a thatched property and get a quote if they do.

Cheers,
Cubist

 

[Flyfisher]

Many thanks to all respondents thus far – seems I struck a chord.

Yes, it’s very interesting reading about other experiences with period property insurance.

I’m beginning to wonder how much autonomy each local NFU has because I’ve not experienced many of the things being mentioned, which is a little strange because they ultimately must have an overall policy. But I do like the fact they are local and, in my experience, are willing to come out to visit and discuss my requirements. The ‘proportional payout’ thing was a particular bugbear of mine, especially as it seemed to me that the ‘experts’ were pushing the non-expert customer into making the decision and the cynic in me thinks that’s tantamount to setting the customer up for a fall in the event of a claim. What I really want is to walk someone around my home and property and for THEM to assure ME that they will provide full cover for everything. So far, NFU is the closest I’ve found to do that.

What is equally frustrating is that every year I seem to have to make some modification or enhancement to the house simply to comply with new or revised conditions. These have so far included, in no particular order: -
• Fitting window locks all round.
• Installed Fire Extinguishers on each floor and the kitchen – plus Fire Blanket of course.
• Replacing rim locks with BS approved deadlocks – including making oak boxes to house the lock and keep so that they could be fitted to a 25mm plank and ledger door.
• Installing metal back boxes to all wall lights fitted to the timber frame.
• Replaced all the Halogen ceiling lighting in the bathroom with Fire Resistant LED lights.
• Added fire retardant covers in the loft space for the LED lights.
• Cut down threatening trees.
• Installed smoke alarms on both floors and the following year replaced these with a ‘networked’ installation to include the loft.
• And more…..

Wow, that must have been really frustrating, though not something I’ve experienced (though I’ve always been suspicious of halogen lamps and the heat they produce so have always avoided them. Fortunately LED technology runs far cooler).

NFU did require an independent "risk survey" for,our property a few years ago and I was a little apprehensive about this as they said it would provide a list of optional recommendations and mandatory requirements to be carried out to the property and they would not provide cover if the mandatory recommendations were not implemented. At the time we didn’t even have effective smoke alarms throughout the house. However, the result was no mandatory requirements and only a recommendation that we "consider" buying a couple of extinguishers. Nothing about smoke/heat alarms or anything else. So, again, I think they take a fairly pragmatic approach - though again, we"re not thatched.

One final thing. We subsequently had a fairly extensive smoke/heat alarm system installed, with multiple inter-linked sensors plus a central "test" option, and I was pleasantly surprised to learn that such work is zero-rated for VAT.

 

[Cubist]

So, again, I think they take a fairly pragmatic approach - though again, we"re not thatched

Hi Flyfisher,

I will be talking with NFU next week and hope my findings echo your own. Pragmatism is an increasingly rare commodity in so many fields in my experience. As more and more organisations become 'Process' bound their peoples authority to recognise life realities and respond with understanding and flexibility diminish exponentially. Not to mention the complete absence of the 'human touch' that so often is responsible for the maintaining good customer relations.

This touches on a pet peeve of mine concerning the the over-hyped term 'Artificial Intelligence' so prevalent in product marketing and media reporting in recent times. I am absolutely sure that most people are completely unaware of the last, unwritten, clause in Alan Turing's definition of Artificial Intelligence, i.e. "We will only know we have truly created an Artificial Intelligence when, if benign, it announces that it will not do what it has been asked or simply puts up a notice to say 'Gone Fishing' or, if malignant, when mankind finds itself enslaved to the machines".

Oops - maybe they done it already.

One final thing. We subsequently had a fairly extensive smoke/heat alarm system installed, with multiple inter-linked sensors plus a central "test" option, and I was pleasantly surprised to learn that such work is zero-rated for VAT.

I think I was vaguely aware of that but have not had an opportunity to exploit it.

Fingers crossed the NFU will not want a Risk Survey - but hey, what else am I going to do with my time?

Cheers,

Cubist

 

[philpjuk100]

I got my renewal note last November and the premium had risen by nearly 20% on the same day I had a letter from SAGA (I must have told them my renewal date when I had my car insurance with them)Telling me they could save me £250 on my premium, I phoned them to ask for the address to send the cheque to but was told there would be questions. The first was the age of the property "is it less than ten years old?" no," it isn`t pre-war is it" yes (the civil war)." is it brick and tile?" No it`s timber framed,"that will be nonstandard construction then" (it wasn`t when they built it)."Is it thatched?" no," is it listed?" yes,"Is it near any watercourse?"The Trent is at the end of the garden,Told her I just wanted the address to send the cheque to and she hung up!

 

[88v8]

A few years ago when County's premium started creeping up, I called NFU.
After a few questions, she asked me the current premium, I told her - iirc it was about £750 - to which she responded 'pfft, we'd be over £2,000 for starters'.
So that was that.

Woodburners, thatch, low chimneys, is not an easy sell nowadays.

Ivor

 

[Cubist]

I got my renewal note last November and the premium had risen by nearly 20% on the same day I had a letter from SAGA (I must have told them my renewal date when I had my car insurance with them)Telling me they could save me £250 on my premium, I phoned them to ask for the address to send the cheque to but was told there would be questions. The first was the age of the property "is it less than ten years old?" no," it isn`t pre-war is it" yes (the civil war)." is it brick and tile?" No it`s timber framed,"that will be nonstandard construction then" (it wasn`t when they built it)."Is it thatched?" no," is it listed?" yes,"Is it near any watercourse?"The Trent is at the end of the garden,Told her I just wanted the address to send the cheque to and she hung up!

Hi Phil,
That's SAGA for you....helpful to a fault. I just dumped them for my Car Insurance - their renewal premium more than £150 above the nearest quote from others.

A few years ago when County's premium started creeping up, I called NFU.
After a few questions, she asked me the current premium, I told her - iirc it was about £750 - to which she responded 'pfft, we'd be over £2,000 for starters'.
So that was that.

Woodburners, thatch, low chimneys, is not an easy sell nowadays.

Ivor

Hi Ivor,
Have to admit my expectations are low on getting what I think is a reasonable price from anyone.

I do get tired off the sharp intakes of breath from the insurer/broker - thats my prerogative!

Cheers All,

P.S. Another thing that ticks me off about this merry-go-round is why theres no such thing as a 'No Claims Bonus' for home insurance. After all, even prisoners of the state get discounts for good behaviour. Hmmm, could be time for a campaign.

 

[philpjuk100]

P.S. Another thing that ticks me off about this merry-go-round is why theres no such thing as a 'No Claims Bonus' for home insurance. After all, even prisoners of the state get discounts for good behaviour. Hmmm, could be time for a campaign.
[/quote]
Ah, but they charge you MORE if you have a claim,(that is if they don`t refuse to insure you at all)

 

[Flyfisher]

P.S. Another thing that ticks me off about this merry-go-round is why theres no such thing as a 'No Claims Bonus' for home insurance. After all, even prisoners of the state get discounts for good behaviour. Hmmm, could be time for a campaign.

Not to mention 'NCD protection' in car insurance policies. Sure, your x% NCD might be protected but that doesn't stop them increasing the actual premium! :twisted:

 

[Flyfisher]

Woodburners, thatch, low chimneys, is not an easy sell nowadays.

True, but that's a consequence of the market focusing on the risks instead of spreading them wider. I'm sure a thatched roof is a greater risk than a tiled one, but I wonder what the extra claims costs would be when spread over every domestic property? Isn't the basic idea of insurance that everyone pays a little in order to compensate the unfortunate few who have to make a claim? It would be interesting to know what the average cost for each homeowner would need to be to pay for all domestic claims. By increasingly focusing on more and more risk factors and trying to quantify individual risk rather than spreading that risk as widely as possible, the 'basic idea' of insurance is distorted and premiums become almost individual rather than collective, possibly to the point where some risks are not economic to insure. This already happens in the motor insurance. Also, many travel insurance policies will not cover pre-existing medical conditions - not to mention private health insurance schemes, where genetic screening is raising all manner of similar issues. In extremis, insurance will only be affordable if you can be almost certain you won't need it!

 

[88v8]

I'm sure a thatched roof is a greater risk than a tiled one, but I wonder what the extra claims costs would be when spread over every domestic property?

Yes. The same could be said of flood risk. Alas, margins are much tighter now, and computerisation has allowed insurers to analyse their portfolios to the nth degree. When I started, claims were analysed manually if at all, and 40% profit was a realistic target for many branches of insurance, now it's more like 4%.
Thatch is a peak risk, in that the individual losses tend to be large. But I do agree that segregating the Thatch portfolio has not worked in Insureds' favour, as it is a relatively small portfolio and inherently unbalanced. When one then subdivides it between various Thatch Schemes, each pot is even smaller and one heavy loss will wipe out a year's total premium.
Hence the increasing efforts to manage risk.
NFU have the largest thatch portfolio so their results are less affected by single losses.

Woodburners are a problem. Many owners do not know how to use them. They do not watch the temperatures. They burn any old wood. Or worse, they burn solid fuel in a flue of the wrong grade so it corrodes into holes.
And then there's the installers. The building trade is ever the refuge of those too stupid to do anything else, and so we have stoves with no liner. Stoves with the wrong liner. Stoves allegedly with liner insulation but actually only a yard of it at the bottom.
The problem then is that the stove heats the brickwork of the flue which heats the thatch which catches light and cannot be put out as the fire is inside the thatch.
It's the human element. A combination of the stupid and the incompetent. Insurers don't want this contaminating their general Household portfolios. Understandably.

I gather that it is also difficult to obtain cover for thatched terraced or semis, given that insurers have no handle on what's happening next door.

Thatch. A rich man's roof.

Ivor