Finding Specialist Trades

[CottageCapers]

Are there people on this forum who can recommend trades who specialise in old properties? I realise there are Trade Associations out there, but I’ve not had much luck in finding people who, for example, specialise in Lime plastering, or know how to remove paint from old woodwork. Recommendations are what we would all ideally like, but I don’t know anyone else with a period property, hence me joining here. I have found some good trades so far, for general things like electrics, chimney sweeping and heating, but none who could repair wattle and daub, or lime plastering. I love my old cottage, but want to treasure it. Unfortunately it is not listed so everyone and his wife has put their own stamp on it over the years!

 

[mardinor]

In general, if they are skilled enough to do it you won’t be rich enough to afford it. Which is why there’s so few left with the skills. Afraid it’s DIY.

 

[Lacan07]

I've posted about this before but for anyone wanting to find a lime plasterer might be worth joining these Facebook groups and creating a post asking for help. They're mostly lime specialists on there and one of them might be in your area. For example there's a regular contributor called Ben who seems to work pretty extensively around the UK.

Building with Lime - Mortars, Plasters & Renders | Facebook

Public group for Trade and DIY supporters of building with lime and all relevant aspects of heritage, conservation and eco-build construction and materials for preparation, application and aftercare...

www.facebook.com

The Traditional Lime plastering forum | Facebook

this group is dedicated to traditional plastering and heritage plastering in period properties.

www.facebook.com

CottageCapers, let me know if you're not on FB and I can put the call out for you if you like.

 

[overlander matt]

I was very lucky here in the East Midlands finding trades when I started on our place. I managed to find regular tradesmen that were a bit more senior, not in such a rush to get on to the next job and had experience working with older properties. The specialists were all quoting figures that were well beyond our means. Good luck with your search.

 

[ThornhillMike]

Try renovating a place in the Isle of Man; trades who turn up are difficult enough to find, never mind ones who care. Reinforces the "I" in DIY...!

 

[CottageCapers]

In general, if they are skilled enough to do it you won’t be rich enough to afford it. Which is why there’s so few left with the skills. Afraid it’s DIY.

How rich do you have to be?

 

[CottageCapers]

I've posted about this before but for anyone wanting to find a lime plasterer might be worth joining these Facebook groups and creating a post asking for help. They're mostly lime specialists on there and one of them might be in your area. For example there's a regular contributor called Ben who seems to work pretty extensively around the UK.

Building with Lime - Mortars, Plasters & Renders | Facebook

Public group for Trade and DIY supporters of building with lime and all relevant aspects of heritage, conservation and eco-build construction and materials for preparation, application and aftercare...

www.facebook.com

The Traditional Lime plastering forum | Facebook

this group is dedicated to traditional plastering and heritage plastering in period properties.

www.facebook.com

CottageCapers, let me know if you're not on FB and I can put the call out for you if you like.

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, I’m on Facebook and I will have a peep at the groups you’ve linked, later.

 

[a twig]

How rich do you have to be?

Last quote I got from a heritage plasterer was to plaster two walls and a ceiling in 4m by 3.5m bedroom using the traditional 3 coats of fat lime - had already had old plaster hacked off and new reeds etc put up on ceiling - was quoted £7k and this was in 2015 so I dread to think what it would be now

 

[CottageCapers]

Last quote I got from a heritage plasterer was to plaster two walls and a ceiling in 4m by 3.5m bedroom using the traditional 3 coats of fat lime - had already had old plaster hacked off and new reeds etc put up on ceiling - was quoted £7k and this was in 2015 so I dread to think what it would be now

Agreed it is expensive, but old houses are money pits.

 

[a twig]

Not really sure the point you’re making as arguably it’s the premium that trades put on anything “heritage” that often makes them money pits and puts appropriate repair and maintenance techniques out of the reach of owners.

Take plastering - materials wise mixing up a lime plaster is broadly cost neutral to knocking up a few bags of thistle, and lime is arguably easier and more forgiving.

Yes there can be more labour involved depending on approach (number of coats etc) but not enough to justify some of the pricing I’ve seen.

 

[Toby Newell]

In general, if they are skilled enough to do it you won’t be rich enough to afford it. Which is why there’s so few left with the skills. Afraid it’s DIY.

lol. First world problems eh?

There are very few clients I work for that aren't considerably richer than me.

Compared to, and thus excluding, period properties in large towns like London where property prices are extortionate as well as the renovation costs. Houses in rural areas are incredibly cheap for what you get with regard to gardens, character and setting.

If you want a 3 bed Victorian flat in London you can easily pay the wrong side of £1M. For the same money you can buy two wool traders' 15th century cottages, with a combined six bedrooms, in Suffolk with amazing history and features for the same money, live in one and rent the other out. (True story...)

The fact you have to pay for more renovation is part of the trade off.

Personally it seems like a no brainer to me, a lovely rural setting with amazing features or an overpriced property in an overcrowded conurbation. I would choose cheap, rural period property every time.

The reason why there are so few decent trades speciallising in period work is because it is incredibly expensive to run a business, harder work and less profitable to work on older properties.

Ironically, the less people are willing to pay, the less tradesmen there will be.

I certainly would of made much more money concentrating on easier, more modern jobs and offering a lower quality service.

Part of my 'payment' is the interest and enjoyment of the work.

I am currently restoring a door for half price because it is 'nice'.

You cannot have your cake and eat it. Refuse to pay for quality work and soon there will be no quality workers left.

I have worked with Rob Dunne, who is one of the top lime plasterers in the country, but be is normally booked up for over a year.

 

[Lacan07]

Yeah, there's more than enough people out there willing to pay for a lime specialist as they're so infrequently available

Last quote I got from a heritage plasterer was to plaster two walls and a ceiling in 4m by 3.5m bedroom using the traditional 3 coats of fat lime - had already had old plaster hacked off and new reeds etc put up on ceiling - was quoted £7k and this was in 2015 so I dread to think what it would be now

I would say at 7K your quote was pretty steep Twig.

Don't quote me on this but if memory serves the last time the subject came up on the FB groups I think the average cost of 3 coat lime would be somewhere between £120 - £200 per SQM

 

[a twig]

Precisely the point I was making I think - they were a “specialist heritage conservation plasterer” so felt comfortable quoting prices like that

 

[Lacan07]

Precisely the point I was making I think - they were a “specialist heritage conservation plasterer” so felt comfortable quoting prices like that

Yes, taking the pee for sure.

 

[Lacan07]

lol. First world problems eh?

There are very few clients I work for that aren't considerably richer than me.

Compared to, and thus excluding, period properties in large towns like London where property prices are extortionate as well as the renovation costs. Houses in rural areas are incredibly cheap for what you get with regard to gardens, character and setting.

If you want a 3 bed Victorian flat in London you can easily pay the wrong side of £1M. For the same money you can buy two wool traders' 15th century cottages, with a combined six bedrooms, in Suffolk with amazing history and features for the same money, live in one and rent the other out. (True story...)

The fact you have to pay for more renovation is part of the trade off.

Personally it seems like a no brainer to me, a lovely rural setting with amazing features or an overpriced property in an overcrowded conurbation. I would choose cheap, rural period property every time.

The reason why there are so few decent trades speciallising in period work is because it is incredibly expensive to run a business, harder work and less profitable to work on older properties.

Ironically, the less people are willing to pay, the less tradesmen there will be.

I certainly would of made much more money concentrating on easier, more modern jobs and offering a lower quality service.

Part of my 'payment' is the interest and enjoyment of the work.

I am currently restoring a door for half price because it is 'nice'.

You cannot have your cake and eat it. Refuse to pay for quality work and soon there will be no quality workers left.

I have worked with Rob Dunne, who is one of the top lime plasterers in the country, but be is normally booked up for over a year.

I think the difference with lime specialists is they usually 'slake' their own lime on site to create a 'hot mix' and when you add in the 3 - 4 coat system over a period of weeks you can start to understand the price difference. Gypsum was largely developed to avoid all that, it enabled the modern plasterer to go from brick to finish in a day with ready made bagged material.

 

[Roger111]

Ill get shot here but. Get the lime plaster ready mixed and bought in, and get a normal plasterer. There really isnt that much to it. I know many limeplasters will disagree but worked perfectly for me, finish great and standard costs. Perhaps you wont get a perfect finish but most plasterers in gyp arent perfect.

 

[malcolm]

As above - that's what I have done in the past. The skills involved in plastering neatly are harder to learn than how to use the different materials.

You tend to have to specify the materials yourself (or to ask on the forum). For the bricklayer I had my own labourer mix up lime for him. The plasterers had used a certain ready mix before and were happy to use that.

The difficulty for the trades will be in quoting a fixed price to do something they have never done before. Small one man band companies will normally work on a day rate and be prepared to try new things. It means you are paying for their learning but tends to be cheaper than employing specialists. You will normally have to do the research yourself and provide the materials. And there are a few bad eggs so useful to be around rather than in Sweden just in case you have one of them.

 

[Toby Newell]

Biting my tongue here.

Most specialist trades are fantastic value for money, probably the best work for £ in the construction industry. Most. Good plumbers make up to £1000 a day installing boilers and doing power flushes, a client of mine in Tunbridge pays £120phr because the plumber is helpful and relaible.

You want a kitchen or bathroom installed by some of the cheapest companies in the UK? Go to Ikea, or Magnet or B&Q, the fitters who come to your house, some great, some not so good, are charged out at £500 to £600 a day.

Now. Have these plumbers or kitchen fitters devoted decades of their life to perfecting their art? Maybe. But as much as decent specialists? Probably not.

People like myself or Robert Dunn who have worked on landmark grade 1 properties, advised architects and institutions, we typically charge £350 to £500 a day, so less than your average B&Q supplied kitchen fitter subbie. Yet we can do stuff only a handful of people in the country can.

Outstanding value.

The construction industry, restoration and reclamation is full of sharks however.

You may have experienced one of the following:

1. You ask too many questions, I personally enjoy this, some builders do not, if they think you are going to be too fussy, tell them what to do or constantly query them (generally be a PITA in their eyes) they will often give you a 'sky rocket' to put you off rather than tell you.

2. A large proportion of people working in our industry are duplicitous and here is how their MO works.

a. Spend on marketing, website, SEO, pay per click advertising, multiple websites under different names, join multiple meaningless associations, eg Guild of Master Craftsmen, National Wood Flooring association, BAFRA, ICON, Federation of Master Builders, NICEIC, Checkatrade etc.

b. Answer every call, see every job, quote for every job.

c. In order to secure maximum slots give unrealistically low prices even for unviable or low profit jobs, book up 6 months of slots at tier 3 prices loss to break even.

d. After 6 months full start pricing at tier 2, break even to low profit. Tier 2 prices.

e. After 2 to 3 months full at tier 2 start pricing at tier 3, ie sky rocket again. Often this is to the most gullable and / or kind people.

f. Tier 3 price recipients will find that often the vendors vanish, don't turn up, don't answer calls. Tier 2 price recipients will often get a rushed job with cut corners, additonal costs added on or a no show. Tier 3 customers will get the job done often poorly at terrible value for money and no redress if things go wrong.

So.

If you have received ridiculous prices you could either be being perceived as being a PITA, or gullable. Just saying.

True specialists normally charge less than an average subbie is charged by all and sundry to fit kitchens, adequately. So. Not expensive. Relatively speaking.

There are very few very good lime plasters out there. There are a lot of average ones and some of them are chancers.

My particular speciality is dominated by chancers.

Just telling you how it is from over 30 years in the trade.

 

[a twig]

I don’t disagree Mr Newell, I’m never averse to paying a fair rate for skills and experience and obviously niche skills are harder to find and will command a higher price.

I expect to pay £250-£350 a day for an experienced stonemason or a brickie, likewise to your quoted rate for plumbers - happy to pay the hefty hourly rate if they turn up when they say they will, work hard and bash out the job in a few hours.

The “specialists” I was complaining about are generally those who put “heritage” or “conservation” in their title and think that allows them to charge 3 or 4 times that for a job that is rarely better than any “normal” trades, as per my lime plasterer example. Likewise if I’m paying a stone specialist to restore an ashlar wall and a significant sum, I don’t expect to see a spotty 17 year old to be dropped off on his own in the morning with a DOFF machine he doesn’t even know how to operate.

I do also suspect I am in the category 1 you mention, a few years ago I had a stone mason round to quote. After I had specified the job and methods required he asked me if I was a stone mason, didn’t believe me when I said no, and ultimately refused to quote.

I’ve also noticed that when I am working from home and answer the door in work attire, the prices tend to be higher compared to if I am sloping around in garden clothes and make the effort to hide my accent a bit

I know I am unusual in supplying written scopes of works for anything larger than a routine job but having worked on large construction projects in a professional capacity and seen the car crashes that can happen without them, it’s not a habit I’m likely to break any time soon

 

[Zebra]

I've done what Roger111 and malcolm describe above - get a "normal" tradesperson, pay them a day rate, do my own research into exactly what I want, provide materials myself, and let them know that I'm just hiring them for their trowel skills and any risk is mine. Some will be amenable to that, some won't.
One job went horribly wrong - turned out to be a mistake by the supplier, the job had to be redone, and I paid them a second time just the same.