finding some "lost space"

[Hatster]

Not a reference to Plank-Herschel, but an attempt to get a bathroom with some ventilation.

We have one of those 17th century houses with a whacking great chimney in the middle (or rather, with a lot of missing space in the middle, at least some of which must be a chimney). Our bathroom is currently internal (no windows), and the ventilation is poor. We'd ideally like a window in it, but thought this might be a pipe dream. However, an architect suggested that it was possible that there was quite a bit of missing space beside the bathroom, which might perhaps join up with a gigantic "cupboard" with an exterior wall which the COs might allow a little window in.

Before I go ahead and instruct the architects, I'd like to try to work out if the missing space does exist that would allow the bathroom to connect to the cupboard. I've been wandering around with a tape measure, and have enlarged a small hole in the lath and plaster of the cupboard to look through to see what I can see on the other side (seemed to be a beam).

What's the best way to do this kind of complicated house plan and to work out where the lost space is / if there is any? I need to work out not only the floor plan, but also the probable heights of the ceiling at all points, to allow for the eaves dropping down. Is detailed tape measuring the answer? Are there any tricks of the trade that I should know? The house isn't a succession of straight lines, so it's quite difficult to plan.

Is there a more scientific way to work out the actual size of the chimney than banging? On the ground floor, the chimney (which did have two fireplaces back to back, I believe) has been blocked up on both sides, so I can't tell how much really is chimney. The amount of 'missing space' is equivalent to a good sized bedroom in a modern house!

 

[JoceAndChris]

What happens in the attic? Any clues?

 

[chuckey]

My brother- in-law owns a victorian house. This is double fronted with an extra room on the side( on each floor), these are all 9' ceiling height compared with 16'/12' of the main rooms. The effect is that these are mezzanine floors but the roof is over the whole lot. The secret is that there is a 6' deep tank over the top of these side rooms which takes up the extra height "gained".
I guess that this huge tank was fed with rainfall from the roof.
Frank

 

[Cloudscape]

We have two fireplaces back to back, probably as old as yours. One side houses a 70s Rayburn in a recess 26in deep. The other side has an old range in a recess 36in deep. But the back-to-back chimney is 98in deep! Somewhere in the middle is a back-boiler for the range. There's a recess about 36in deep, once occupied by a bread oven, on the kitchen side (the Rayburn side), but no recess on the other side (the range side). There are definitely unexplained masses that might be solid stone. If there's a void, I have no idea why.

I'm assuming you have measurements for the outside and inside of that section of your house? If you draw the exterior and known points (window and door openings, interior walls in relation to those openings, and wall thicknesses)... whatever is left must be the 'hidden space'. How it's constructed, and what's currently occupying the space, is a mystery the house doesn't seem to want to reveal easily.

Drawing the plan totally accurately might be extremely difficult, but you could have a bash at it. The complexity of it means that you probably wouldn't be challenged on it, because someone else would have to make a better drawing to prove you wrong. :wink:

 

[DaveBrigg]

When we sold our last house, the buyer asked for a full survey. The surveyor used one of those laser measuring devices and two large pieces of graph paper like we used to have at school. It works better when the walls are straight of course, and you would need to find a way of including ceiling heights in the plan.
We discovered a sealed up room in our house when looking for a route for the central heating pipes; it is behind the staircase, and was once used, since some plaster remains on the wall and there is the outline of a doorway. The only access is by lifting floorboards and using a ladder though, so it's not much use.

 

[Penners]

One useful trick in measuring up a reasonably accurate floor-plan of an old house is to try and establish datum points. If you're having trouble "projecting" lines or measurements through walls or obstacles, try to find a detail or feature that is visible, or measurable, on both sides of the obstruction.

This might be an easily identifiable beam, a chimney face, a steel tie... anything whose exact location can be confidently identified on both sides of the obstruction.

You can then use this datum as your starting point to measure up both areas, and relate them to each other.

But ultimately, yes, your tape is your best friend. That and, if you know how to use one, a simple vector drawing programme on your computer. It's often surprising how a seemingly confusing series of dimensions, once laid out as fairly accurate lines on paper, can suddenly produce a "Eureka!" moment.

 

[briany]

If you want to use some simple and free computer modeling software, try google sketch up http://sketchup.google.com/
I spent many happy work hours drawing up exciting plans for my house with similar architectural software before I ever touched the place (my work is mostly abroad), then when I started work on the place, didn't open the computer once. But it was great fun all the same.
B

 

[Penners]

Sketchup is a great piece of free software, but for a quick, simple 2D line-drawing plan, I don't think you can beat a simple vector package.

Here's a free one: http://www.freeserifsoftware.com/software/DrawPlus/default.asp

 

[Hatster]

Thanks muchly, everyone. I've found Sketchup a little difficult to use, so may have to wait for Mr Hatster to come home before I can start on that one, although it would be handy for plotting ceiling heights. Meanwhile, I shall buy lots of graph paper and triangulate from known key points, and let you know how it goes.

 

[Penners]

Do try the free Serif package, Drawplus, that I linked to above. I think you'll find it a lot easier than Sketchup.

 

[AMc]

I've found Sketchup a little difficult to use

FWIW back the the 1990's I was a real time 3D designer and figured I would pickup Sketchup without needing the tutorials...well I was wrong but with a bit of practice it is very quick and easy to use.

You're not going to get to grips with Sketchup by randomly pressing buttons. If you follow the video tutorials here
http://sketchup.google.com/training/videos/new_to_gsu.html
You will get to grips with it much faster. You'll need to invest a few hours following along but you'll be much better placed to work out your spaces in 3D.

Houses, esp. old houses are inherently 3D. The plans I had drawn up of mine pre and proposed renovation contain very few 'plan' errors but missing steps and ceiling lines has caused some considerable head scratching in the 'real world'.

 

[Penners]

Houses, esp. old houses are inherently 3D.

What an astute observation. I'd never noticed that before.


:wink:

 

[Hatster]

No, but we all know exactly what he means! It's the cheery bit where you calculate there is a space of 2m available to expand your room into , and then realise that much of that 2m is in fact 40cm high.

 

[AMc]

In my case reopening in a doorway into a corridor and extrapolating a bathroom size without noting a 12" drop at the door and a sloped ceiling in the corridor with only 1.8m head height at the bottom.
At least the doorway and corridor used to exist so we know it's possible to get from the front to the back here, the worry is how little the 'main' bathroom will become when we build the new stud wall to enclose it.

We'll see how bad this is when we open up the doorway, but it's been a serious problem that simply isn't there on the plans!

 

[Hatster]

My problem is that being 5 foot tall, with a brother in law who's 6ft 4, I quite happily assume that there's 'plenty of headroom' when the rest of the world doesn't agree.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Hello, 5 foot tall cashmere wearing twin!

 

[Hatster]

We'll have to arrange a flatlands meetup to slap lime plaster on each others' cashmere!

 

[Penners]

Girl-on-girl lime plaster action....this is starting to sound a teeeeny bit dodgy. :shock:

 

[JoceAndChris]

Sounds great to me! :wink:

 

[Hatster]

We'll invite you to watch, Penners :wink: