ENGLISH HERITAGE hello? anyone there?

[Anonymous]

Hi

Sorry about this but this kind of thing drives me crazy.

I have just got back from working the night in Holland Park. Very nice house (Georgian grade II*). The Ambassador to Quatar has bought it apparently. Several million pounds. Now you couldn't make this up.

I revived a victorian Spanish (beautiful) mahogany fireplace in French polish but was called back by the site finishing foreman because of "dust particles". Seeing as the labourers were sweeping the unsealed dust covered floors I just smiled sweetly and went back. Now what made me laugh (in disgust) was the handrail.

Not just any handrail, the (200 foot long) original 1740 Spanish mahogany droolingly gorgeous full shine French polished handrail. Priceless really as that wood does not exist anymore, at least not legally. So what did they do to it?

Get the painters to strip it with a shavehook, apply one coat of dark "mud" (or shed-stain as I call it) pigmented stain then one wax. Result: One achingly gorgeous piece of wood ruined forever. When I asked the finishing foreman politely what the ***** was going on he told me English Heritage had specified the work and that it was traditional. Oh, and not to worry, after a "few more coats of wax" the full shine would return. Actually it looked like a rough piece of creosoted shed timber.

Sorry to be a bore but I see this all the time and for a wood lover it's actually upsetting. I know it all comes down to money these days but they will all be sorry when there are no real French polishers left, only legions of cheap eastern european painters, rich building company owners with fat grins and miles and miles of ruined woodwork.

Come on EH, sort yourselves out!

Toby

 

[Anonymous]

Try calling EH and asking if they actually had specified the work...

Of course the desperate underfunding and undermining of EH doesn't help.

 

[Anonymous]

That sounds typical. My main gripe with them is their staggering slowness. My architect and I waited six months to get any sort of a reply from them after a site visit. They had promised a written reply in one week!

While we are on the subject of wood - any ideas on what to use on old oak timbers that are covered in old layers of black shiny paint but are too rough and insect eaten to clean / strip with the usual KlingStrip stuff. Know of any 'brown' finishes that can be produced without stripping?

 

[Anonymous]

EH's funding has been cut to the bone - so don't blame EH blame the government. There are only so many hours in a day for people to work, and many experienced people are jumping ship to work for private 'consultants'.

Meanwhile, sport has had its funding raised by an an incredible percentage. Heritage isn't important you see, sport is.

It may also be that a building bought by an ambassador is covered by diplomatic immunity - as with the Adam Chinese Embassy which was demolished without LBC...

I rather suspect that as EH doesn't own the building they won't have been responsible for the specification in all its detail.

Many think there are major problems with EH but you can't blame them for everything.

The Georgian Group may of course be interested in this although too late to do much about it.



http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmcumeds/uc912-i/uc91202.htm

 

[Anonymous]

I think you will find that just like many other major fund quaffing organisations in this country, vast amounts of cash are voraciously gobbled up by large inept, over-managed, politically correct, bureaucratic bottomless bins (EH included).

It is only people who don’t really know what they are looking at that marvel at some of the crass work that these people oversee. Throwing money at them can only make things worse by making the end results even more unfathomable, look at the NHS!

Assign funds to genuine specialists and stop spreading it about so wastefully!

Give me some!

Wood Wood

 

[Anonymous]

It's doubtful that EH did oversee the work - that should be up to the architect, the site foreman and the 'craftsperson' involved. EH may not even have had any input at all - and it would be interesting to see the detailed specification for the work before apportioning blame.

It's so easy to blame 'them' when it's not the fault of 'them'.

It happens on a daily basis - the small builders who turn up at your home saying they know all about using lime, then chuck in a bucket of cement when your back is turned...

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, I was speaking more globally, because the thread is headed ‘English Heritage’.

‘You’ carried on about ‘EH’ being blameless and said give them more dosh! No one else did, SO THERE!!

Although you are quite right to stick up for ‘them’ like you do, because we are immensely lucky to have such an organisation. I would just like them to be a whole damn lot more efficient and to stop this silly mob-handed, ‘management blitzkrieg’ type attitude they have. Maybe it does provide jobs for the boys but it certainly doesn't do the work. It is an expensive avenue to go down and a luxury we can’t afford! Unnecessary extra curricular hangers on, should get jobs in other quangos elsewhere and the savings should be rerouted to those who do the biz.

No CO or EH inspector could possibly be completely offay with all trades, but a peripatetic (!) specialist should be on hand for any eventuality as a matter of course (better also to have ‘skills based’ hangers on rather than those of academic background).

Wood Wood

 

[Anonymous]

We need both - and EH has both, but they are in ever shorter supply.

Where listing and historic research is concerned then there are academics. Where policy is concerned there are those with that sort of expertise.

I know the buildings manager for a local EH region and he has hands on expertise.

But all this takes money. Far, far more than is avaialble.

 

[Anonymous]

Toby

Good to hear from you.

Believe it or not I am close (ie. within the next few months) to getting the back half of my living room in Islington to a state where the floor needs your expert attention. The hall and the other half which you did for me are still looking wonderful and are greatly admired.

Nigel

PS I'm not being paid a commission for this plug, honest.

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed, but there is a far, far greater majority of one than the other, I know that although there are isolated exceptions EH sadly lack expertise in a few critical areas. Are they partly to blame for the lack of skilled craftsmen? It is quite easy for a qualified inspector to give guidance by example you know, but is it ever done? There must be ongoing training and Quality Control, the rarer the subject matter the more important it is that assessors are found competent to demonstrate as well as to judge.

To the layman things may seem ok and we all trust people of authority with perceived abilities, maybe because we have faith in them, or is it because we know no better. Possibly only a few people will ever notice that that handrail is even made of wood, never mind about the sheen on it! But people like us know Evelyn and we should do something about it for posterity!

Wood Wood

 

[Anonymous]

The you could put in a memoranda to the DCMS Commons Select Committee Inquiry...

 

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone

I do not think it is a funding problem per se, more a gaping lack of knowledge or (I would guess) giving in to the builders with regard to profit margins. I am sure there are some hard working professional and knowledgeable EH people out there. It is a shame that all these so called institutions' consciences seem to crumble under the slightest political or economic pressure.

Yes, I spoke to the architect, EH did apparently specify the work and yes after the ambassador has moved in he can apparently do what he wants, which is ridiculous but hardly the point.

If I could get a job working for EH as a wood restoration expert I would start tommorrow but I suspect I would get a little frustrated at their apparent impotance.

With regard to the oak beams you can make a nice pigment using Burnt Umber (sometimes called Turkey umbers as this was the main port it was exported from) in french polish. Apply with a soft brush. You may want to add a little vegtable black pigment to tone it down. The advantage of using pigmented french polish is that you can vary the amount of opacity, it is easier to apply and of course the resulting finish is a lot thinner than a paint, so it will retain more detail.

Toby

 

[Anonymous]

Hello Toby, can I take advantage of your knowledge a bit? I also have a very crumbly craggy beam I uncovered last week (there a whole load of posts and pic below (what gypsum does to a C17 beam). I was wondering is, without removing alot more wood to smooth it down is there any filler traditional or otherwise, I could use to make it a bit less craggy? theres lots of holes where wood came away with the nails that held the metal lath down over it and various chunks missing.. don't need to make it perfect, just something I could build it out with a bit in the worst places that wouldn't show to much when waxed? I'd be happy to apply a slight stain if that helps as obviously the external wood is virtually all gone so it llooks very yellow next to the other wood around it..

many thanks,

Becca

 

[Anonymous]

So - according to the architect EH actually specified scraping off paint with a scraper and re-waxing?

Not what EH usually is about - that's the architect's job. I'd like to see the spec. The Georgian Group too should have been consulted, of course, although no notice has to be taken of any of this consultation - at the end of the day it's the local authority which gives permission for the work. Elected representatives.

Funding is in crisis - if you think not ask all involved with EH.

 

[Anonymous]

Who is the architect and who are the contractors working for the owner?

The architect should be specifying and supervising the work!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Becca

This is one area where modern materials prevail over older ones. You will require a two part filling system like Bondawood, Ronseal High Performance (green and yellow tin) etc much like car body filler (which works just as well)

Mix up a small amount and apply in layers of around 1cm (1/3 inch) thick. It dries rapidly and can be carved/sanded. You can, if you want, carve holes etc in the filler to blend in with the old. It doesn't take stain very well no matter what it says on the tin so you would need to apply a pigmented finish over the top. The good point is that it will help to bind the damaged area together. If the wood is very friable you may want to carefully inject a wood hardener into the area beforehand.

As an aside gypsum is a lot less damaging to oak than lime which eats it alive! Although the problem for decay is normally damp/insect related.

Hope this helps, Toby

 

[Anonymous]

Evelyn

I think how it works (in my experience, I must have worked in many hundreds of listed buildings) is that EH offer guideline and advice, some being more forceful than others. The architect would indeed provide the specification, but you would expect EH to provide overarching guidance and presumably more than one site visit to check that guidelines are being followed. Do not get me wrong, the architects are not blameless and most builders only think about money but I would like to think EH could have done more. Hmm. How can I explain. Imagine you were a whisky connoissuer and you found the official society for whisky appreciation suggesting coca cola and ice should be a compulsory addition to all drinks.

Toby

 

[Anonymous]

Toby - this building doesn't belong to EH, and EH isn't employing the 'craftsmen' working on it. EH cannot be standing over people to see how well or how badly they do their jobs, either. That's the job af the architect - who should be a conservation architect. EH will have had input into checking and agreeing work, but beyond that their role is pretty limited.

EH does own some buildings (on behalf of the nation) and when they have work done on those they employ suitable craftspeople.

 

[Anonymous]

Thats great thank you.. I've used similar stuff mending my windows outside but wanted to make sure what was the best thing for an internal beam or see if there were any cunning tricks.. most of the really friable wood seems to have come away with the plaster but I will need a hardener for what has survived.. I have some that is usually brushed on, is this suitable for injection or is there a better system? Also, what would you inject it with?? I'm imagining a hypodermic syringe type thing but would have no idea where I'd get one!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi

I am glad you are so passionate about EH. I would have to disagree with you somewhat, only based on my personal experience. Whilst working at the palace of Westminister for another contractor we were instructed to use a modern Nitrostain (thinners based) on the original linenfold oak panels. When EH paid a visit they did indeed comment on the "powerful" smell the supposedly traditional water stain was producing. Now, I would not expect them to be expert wood finishers but I would expect an EH representative assigned to one of the worlds most important historic buildings to know the difference between the smell of nitrocellulose thinners and water, seeing as they demanded a "traditional" water stain be used. It's a bit like the United Nations, no one doubts that they strive to do an important and valuable job, they should not however be immune from criticism where they fail to achieve what they set out to do. The point I am making is that is appears (to me) that to function effectively EH need to be trained properley and have the political will to stand up for what is right.

What I have found in my experience is the perverse situation whereby the bigger the project the more likely the rules can be bent, whereas (like some local planning issues) it is the smaller private jobs in domestic homes where they put their foot down and sometimes be a little unreasonable. I am not criticising thier staff or their motivation, rather I am making a comment on the current decline in building standards where market forces occupy a bigger space on today's stage than cultural or aesthetic concerns.

In my opinion our rich architecture is one of the things that give us as Britons a much needed cultural identity which we so clearly lack. Slowly this is being eroded and if instutions are not up to the task then years from now our Great Grandchildren will be looking at redbrick copies of the British library and Barrat homes. It is just another sad reflection on how in the last twenty years even (my period of experience) standards have dropped by the wayside in the strive for quicker and easier profits for the property developers.

Regards, Toby