energy saving lamps (short life)

[philpjuk100]

When we moved into our current house eighteen months ago I changed all the lamps for energy saving bulbs,The filament lamps looked as if they had been there for a long time,the glass was dirty and blackend and some of the brass caps had turned green,but since changing them many of the new lamps have needed replacing,some more than once,OK some were cheap ones but others came from my electricity supplier and some 20w screw cap large envelope lamps were quite costly and one of these has just been changed for the second time.I do not think that there is a problem with the supply as the original lamps seemed to have lasted well.I now need to keep a supply of replacements.On the packaging it shows them lasting ten times as long as the old lamps,I do not think that can be correct.I have not kept the duff bulbs or receipts but now will keep the boxes and write the date of putting the lamp into service on it.OK I know I ought to get out more!phil.

 

[still_adrianth]

A while ago I spent some time on the web looking into another CFL (compact fluorescent lamp) phenomenon - occasional flashes or ticking even when turned off at the switch. From what I read then, operating life is affected by temperature, and that by the design of the fitting or shade: can hot air get out of the top and be replaced by cooler? It was said that many shades are unsuitable because the temperature can easily exceed the rating of the electronic components built in to the base of the CFL. I don't have first hand knowledge to back this up, though I did do some expeiments on the bizarre ticking-when-off phenomenon if anyone's interested.

(Ha! Finally something I knew after all this lurking.) Adrian.

 

[philpjuk100]

Thanks Adrian,yes I think that tempature could well be a factor,the lamp over the attic stairway which is used infrequently has been replaced twice and it does get quite hot up there,also the 20w lamp over the kitchen table which is in a glass "chinamans hat" shade with no upper ventilation has also been replaced twice,but there are also bulbs which are in other areas which are not used much and are not in hot situations which have also been replaced.I have not noticed any noise from the lamps but then my ears are not what they were! I will replace bulbs in seldom used areas with filament ones when they need replacing,thanks,phil.

 

[lordmulberry]

Hi,
I replaced my R60 spot lights in the kitchen with Philips equivalents. Two bulbs failed within 3 years. When the first one went I put it down to bad luck. When the second failed I complained to Philips and they replaced it. Took a few e-mails but they did replace it. You could try keeping the packaging and then claiming off the manufacturer when it happens in the future. Might work.
Cheers

 

[philpjuk100]

Yes that sounds the way to go.I will keep the packaging and till recipts,thanks,phil.

 

[MdB]

On the otherside of the coin, we have some not so very compact florescents which I would guess are 10 to 15 years old and still going strong. They do take an awful long time to get to full brightness though. Must have a look to see if they have a date code on them.

 

[Lime]

I've bought 100s of CFLs over the years.
They do appear to be getting better!
But the cheaper ones (often larger) are the worst for failing early, particularly if the get hot.
They can consume electricity when they fail too, so don't leave them dead in a group of lamps.

I think you have to forget the direct correlation of life-to-cost because it is the total energy cosumption that is important.

A fortnight ago I bought 4 Tesco own brand cfls for £2.00.
One worked, two were broken and the other just glowed.
I took them back and selected the most expensive brand to exchange them and expected to pay another £6.00
Instead, I was given 4 pence change as they were on a special offer......(must be a secret as it wasn't displayed)

The point is, cfls do not have to cost a lot.
Shop around and buy when they are on offer but avoid old style big ones.

 

[robgil]

my kitchen lights were in a very very poor state. they were broken and old and not making contact with the bulbs properly.
all my bulbs in the house were dying prematurely , 6 weeks or so was the average.
my land lord came and fixed the kitchen lights after around 2 years of me telling him they were dangerous (they really were hanging from the ceiling by the cable , not great as they were spot lights :shock: ) and the problem went away.

i would say check all your fittings. when i looked into it i found a couple of possibility's , one was that the bulb sockets could be so old that they don't make good contact with the bulb. this causes arching which in turn leads to premature bulb failure.

 

[GeoffP]

The point is, cfls do not have to cost a lot.
Shop around and buy when they are on offer but avoid old style big ones.

Just in case you're interested, I just bought a load of 11watt (60w equivalent) from Morrisons Supermarket on special offer at 50p for 5. At 10p each, it doesn't matter if they don't last long,

Geoff

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Geoff - shhhh. You'll have the eco-police round. That's not the sprit, old chap!

Must get the car out, and motor on down to Morrisons and get some of those throwaway bulbs! :wink:

 

[worms]

... now will keep the boxes and write the date of putting the lamp into service on it.

Possibly I also need to get out more, but I used a fine-point felt tip (I think it was designed for writing on CDs) to put a date on the base of some of the earlier CFL bulbs - easier to check than looking for the appropriate box in the cupboard. I don't do it any more now that the CFLs are cheaper.

Could the early demise be caused by greasy fingers on the glass when putting the bulbs in?

 

[robgil]

you know if your bulbs are dying prematurely shouldn't you be worried about other sensitive electrical equipment in your house , computers for example?
i know the lights are on a different ring but simply looking for longer lasting bulbs isn't really curing the problem.

 

[philpjuk100]

I know its risky saying this but all my electronic stuff has been ok even though its not on any spike type adaptor,the original lamps all looked as if they were many years old.I dont think that my greasy fingers are responsible although I realise that on quartz filament lamps this can be so but in future I will handle them with kitchen towel.It says on the box that a filament bulb lasts 1,000 hours and the edi bulb lasts 10.000 hours thats 417 days if on constantly and I would be suprised if mine were on more than a couple of hours a day.Oh! my wife just tells me that a wall light has just gone out!phil.(morrisons tomorow!)

 

[skier-hughes]

My wife was goiong to a morrisons today so I told her to pick up some of those bulbs, couldn't find them she said, she bought morrisons own brand, 29p per packo of two, buy one pack get two free, so 29p for 6 bulbs, 11 and 20w!!

 

[Flyfisher]

It's madness really, isn't it?

CFLs were supposed to be more efficient and last longer, to the extent that laws were/are being passed to make incandescents illegal and so help save the planet. But what do we get?, disposable lamps that still fail regularly enough to support a sizeable manufacturing industry that moves fairly complex devices and toxic chemicals to landfill sites via a short stay in our homes.

DAB radios seem to be a similar story. Why keep millions of perfectly good FM radio receivers (average of 5 per household I've read) when they can be made useless overnight by government legislation, thus creating a huge market for new radios that are many times more power hungry that those they replace. Furthermore, the amount of digital compression being used to minimise the transmission bandwidth (to maximise channels and therefore government licence revenue) results in a worse sound quality than the existing FM network.

Normally, I'd accuse government of losing the plot but with these examples I don't think they've even noticed a plot beyond the opportunistic dash for more revenues and stimulating unnecessary industry. Got to keep the economy growing, even if it means throwing away perfectly good stuff to make way for the new.

Governments might talk 'green' but their actions speak louder.

 

[still_adrianth]

Heartily agree with Flyfisher.

On reflection, the odd CFL phenomena I mentioned are relevant to period property inhabitants, so here is my story (skip if you don't like electricals!):

The light on our landing hangs close to one's ear, and I put an Osram CFL in it. While creeping round in the dark in the dead of night, I noticed it making a ticking sound, about once a second, even though turned off. (Quiet, but 38-year-old ears a foot away could hear it in the night.) Where was the CFL getting the energy from to make the noise? I was worried that insulation was leaking in either the switch or the multi-core cable between the switch and the light fitting (hence possibly of concern to others in old houses). By standing on chairs and putting my ear next to other CFLs in the house, I heard that some others of them were doing it too.

First I completely removed one of the switches. The CFL carried on ticking, so it wasn't a switch problem. Then I made a test rig on the dining table: a bayonet fitting with one terminal connected to the neutral of a plug, and the other terminal connected to the brown wire of a few metres of fairly new twin&earth cable. I connected the black wire of the cable to the live of the plug. Note that the brown wire to the bayonet fitting is just floating, not connected to anything. (Obviously, one must be careful.) This is just like the light with the swithch turned off, but now with no switch and nice new cable. Put the CFL in the fitting, plugged-in the plug, and the CFL ticked. I experimented with different lengths of cable: the longer the length the more frequent the ticking.

I emailed Osram, and a nice technical chap said he'd never heard of this, and could I send him the CFL for him to inspect. Then I did some more searching on the web and found tales of others plagued by the CFL in their bedroom occasonally flashing, rather than ticking. Having some electronics training, it seemed to me that what's happening is that some designs of CFL are able to act like a battery and integrate a very low level of energy input. When the accumulated energy reaches a threshold they try to start-up, and either make a frustrated tick-noise, or actually flash. Presumably they get the energy from the minute inductive coupling between the supply and return cores of the cable to the switch - I assume it's not resistive leaking because it happens even with a modern cable (my dining table setup). Being happy that the wiring in our house was OK, I never did send the CFL to the nice technician at Osram - I reconned if he didn't know about it he was the wrong person to bother.

I did say to skip this, you know...

 

[philpjuk100]

Just investigated the failed wall light bulb,it failed in the "somtimes it will work sometimes it wont"mode like ordinary flourescents.It did not make any noise that I could hear but smelt hot and on removal was very hot around the electronics housing.On opening it the electronic board looks ok but one end of the tube had been hot and had burned the plastic moulding.These lamps were purchased from boyes just after last christmas at £2.45 (just before the "bogof"deal)and this is the third one to fail from the eight purchased, The box is from the bulb I replaced it with,phil.I am quite suprised at how much you get for your money(all this for 10p at morrisons!)

 

[philpjuk100]

Found these pics on the web,phil.

 

[MdB]

... Presumably they get the energy from the minute inductive coupling between the supply and return cores of the cable to the switch - I assume it's not resistive leaking because it happens even with a modern cable (my dining table setup)...

It is not inductance, but capacitance between the wires (approx 10pF per m) which will cause this effect. A diode in the CFL will be all that is needed for a charge to collect.

It would be worth checking that the earth wire is connected properly in the twin and earth cable to your light switch as this will significantly reduce the capacitance between the live conductor and the switched live conductor. Lots of old houses have the earth connection unused / disconnected in lighting circuits...

 

[Ushy M]

This is Mr M posting here, not Ushy. What you've observed is the modern equivalent of fluorescent "ghosting", not often seen nowadays with modern efficient ballasts, but it used to manifest itself as a glow at the end of fluorescent tubes, occasionally rippling along the whole length of the tube.

I was always told this phenomenon was caused by inductance, and in fact there is a modern "installation artist" who creates simple sculptures by sticking forests of fluorescent tubes into the ground underneath high voltage power lines and the resulting inductance producing a very impressive and occasionally flickering glow in the tubes. A school Physics lesson always used to include a demonstration of generation of static electricity by rubbing a bare fluorescent tube with a silk cloth, producing light in the tube. (Mr M - lighting engineer, not electronics engineer!)