Electrical Report for a thatch property

[elizabeth]

Hi, I am looking for some advice please. Our thatched property is due for its 10 year electrical report and as we’ve never done this before, could anyone tell us please if they have experience in this.
I am struggling to find an electrician who is willing to do this and has all the necessary qualifications required by the Insurance.
Be glad for some advice.
Elizabeth

 

[88v8]

Where are you? Edit the location in your profile.

Ivor

 

[Owain]

What qualification is required by your insurer?

City & Guilds Electrical Inspection and Testing 2391-51 or 2391-52 (NB 2391-50 does not qualify to carry out Periodic Inspection and Testing)
or
City & Guilds Periodic Testing Inspection and Certification 2395-01

are the standard ones for electricians.

City & Guilds Installing, Testing and Ensuring Compliance of Electrical Installation Work in Dwellings 2397 is a significantly more in-depth qualification aimed at qualified supervisors and managers.

 

[88v8]

Hmmm, Devon.
Used to holiday in Northam. In the 70s.

We used a local chap. Advertises in the church mag. No idea of his qualifications but he was happy to do the report, and more important was not fussed about 'old house' stuff such as ancient brass switches.

What about the people who did your report in 2008 ?

Ivor

 

[elizabeth]

Hi, sorry I should have posted this earlier. They require an electrician who is part of the following approved associations. The last company I phoned told me they would carry out an inspection and suggest work before issuing a certificate and one job they insist is for the loft cables to be encased in metal to guard against rodents. I can understand the concern with rodents but he said he would be surprised if we were given a certificate without this work by anyone by today’s standards. I wonder if this is going to be a compulsory requirement for what can be quite disruptive work. I suppose one has to way up the risks.




NICEIC – National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting
NAPIT – National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers
BSI – British Standards Institution
ECA – Electrical Contractors Association
Stroma – Part of ECA which promotes regulation of electrical contractors
ELECSA – Provides inspection, assessment and certification services for Electrical Contractors

I will try the P.O. electrician. Thank you for your suggestion.

 

[Cubist]

Hi Elizabeth,

We have a thatched cottage on the Shropshire/Herefordshire Border and our insurers have insisted that we have these regular electrical inspections since we purchased the place. As we are in our eighth year now, and as the contractor we use has only ever issued certificates for 5 years each, we have another two years until our next. Typically all the insurers we have dealt with insist on NICEIC as the principle accreditation required but I guess some will accept one or more of the others.

Most electrical contractors take their guidance from the Building Regulations when determining minimum standards for compliance and, as yet, I am not aware of any specific guidance concerning a requirement for metal conduit in loft spaces but obviously I now need to check. Nor am I aware, at present, of any specific demands from the insurers regarding the level of protection required for cabling in loft spaces - I will have to check that too but, if there is, it should be stipulated as a specific question in the application form for the policy.

Agreed, rodents in the loft space can sometimes take more than a passing interest in the cabling but so far I have found no evidence of this. The cabling in our loft is fairly modern though as the house was fully restored around 30 years ago. It may be worthwhile checking how old the wiring is in your place. That said, provided you have a modern Consumer Unit for electrical distribution around the house, the relevant RCD should blow if a mouse takes a few too many bites.

Inasmuch though that the insurers will do all they can to avoid paying out, and will not provide cover without these certificates, I am afraid that we are to some extent at the mercy of the contractors who are free to interpret the regulations in any way they see fit - and some will take the interpretation that best fits their financial desires. I fired the first one we used because he tried it on and I found a local firm that took a very different view of what work was really needed. I would strongly recommend that you try to find someone else, if at all possible, as the guy you are dealing with seems to be making pronouncements concerning how other contractors would behave.

I do not know if there are any other thatched properties near to you but it may be an idea to speak to them to see who they would recommend to conduct the inspection and perhaps also to find out who they insure with.

I'll let you know if I find anything out concerning the Building Regs and whether our insurers, I tend to shop around come renewal time, have any specific relevant demands.

Cheers,

Cubist

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm sure I've read somewhere about modern house cabling being treated with something to deter rodent attack - capsaicin I seem to recall, the main active ingrediaent of chillies. Trouble is, I had a quick search for a reference but couldn't find anything, so I might have dreamt it.

But while searching I came across this article about 'green' car wiring insulation being made from materials that actually seem to ATTRACT rodents . . . :shock:
http://januspest.com/rats-wreck-ride/

 

[Owain]

he said he would be surprised if we were given a certificate without this work by anyone by today’s standards.

This is ridiculous. If you pay for a Electrical Installation Condition Report you will get a report. This will identify any faults and give them a code C1-C3. NICEIC's guidelines are here; others will be similar, as they should all be following the IET Wiring Regulations:
https://dms.niceic.com/0000000023.pdf

If the existing installation is in good condition with no signs of rodent damage, and no signs of rodent infestation which would cause damage, I think it would be hard for an inspector to justify non-metallic cable enclosure being given more than a

C3 The investigation has revealed recommended a non-compliance with the current safety standard which, whilst not presenting immediate or potential
danger, would result in significant safety improvement if remedied.

especially as the IET Regulations do NOT actually require metallic cable enclosure in thatched properties.

A C3 code does not indicate the installation is unsatisfactory.

 

[Flyfisher]

If the existing installation is in good condition with no signs of rodent damage, and no signs of rodent infestation which would cause damage, I think it would be hard for an inspector to justify non-metallic cable enclosure being given more than a

C3 The investigation has revealed recommended a non-compliance with the current safety standard which, whilst not presenting immediate or potential
danger, would result in significant safety improvement if remedied.

especially as the IET Regulations do NOT actually require metallic cable enclosure in thatched properties.

A C3 code does not indicate the installation is unsatisfactory.

I'm sure that's all correct from the electrician's point of view but the report is required by an insurance company that is in the business of risk assessment. A report confirming "the existing installation is in good condition with no signs of rodent damage" is only good for the day of the inspection. Likewise, even if there are "no signs of rodent infestation which would cause damage" that is no guarantee that there won't be a rodent problem in the future and insurance companies have to deal with that future.

I'm not suggesting the electrician would be at fault for such a factual report but the real issue here is the stance of the insurance company. If it has a policy of requiring all roof wiring to be within a 'metallic enclosure' then that's it's own business and if you don't comply then it can choose not to offer cover . . . regardless of what the IET regulations may or may not require.

Imagine if the electrician who made such a report was required to underwrite any future losses caused by rodent damage - perhaps they would then take another view about whether a metallic cable enclosure is required in a thatched property?

 

[88v8]

Thatch insurance is a niche, and probably many years loss-making.

Woodburners seem to be the main culprits, but insurers do also fuss about the electrics.
Our thatch insurer has said that in addition to the actual certificate they would wish to see the electrician's report and would require both faults (C1) and Recommendations (C3) to be actioned. I part company here; the report is nothing to do with them, and the Recommendations are for me to decide.
In any case, if we inherited a cert with the property - which we did - no accompanying report would be available.

As regards the loft, our electrician was unbothered about the rampant unencased cables. I wanted them clad in something but he wasn't keen on clambering around in our dusty loft so that has probably gone onto the One Day list. And in any case our rodents prefer the pipe lagging.
However, a recent thread on here threw up this product which would do the job and involve much less disruption and rewiring than metal trunking.
https://www.techflex.com/heavy-duty/rodent-resistant-sleeving and in fact makes it a simple(ish) DIY job.

The Wiring Rega, which are not regulations but more properly Standards, are often open to interpretation. If you view electricians' forums you can see them debating the meaning of this n'that. So you may need to try more than one electrician. As has been said, some will spin you a yarn about what needs doing, just to generate work for themselves, and some just love waving the Regs around and tryng to lay down the law. We have an electrician in the village who once quoted me a job, it was like Moses and the Ten Wiring Regulations.

Another reason that thatch is a rich man's roof.

Ivor

 

[Cubist]

Sad to say but Flyfisher and 88v8 are correct for the most part.

The insurer, and often the broker, will demand a copy of the current certificate and confirmation that any issues have been remedied - most often by the issue of a new, clean, certificate before confirming cover.

As regards wood-burners we have two and both have to be professionally cleaned twice a year despite the fact that they are only used for around 6 months. A certificate must also be supplied to the insurer / broker. A couple of years back the broker I was dealing with required, but paid for, a camera survey of the flues - poor guy that did the job had to come down from Fyfe!

First time I've been called rich - but it won't be for long based on how the insurers behave. I'm beginning to think they have a national mafia of contractors from whom they get kick-backs.

 

[Flyfisher]

I part company here; the report is nothing to do with them, and the Recommendations are for me to decide.

Yes and no.

Yes, the report is yours and any recommendations are for you to decide, but as soon as you ask an insurance company to underwrite your property risks then it becomes their business and it is for them to decide. It's no different to them insisting on window locks, or indeed that you have door locks. Their risk, their terms. Take it or leave it.

My in-laws decided to 'leave it' in pretty much all matters of insurance and never bought building or contents insurance, travel insurance or any other form of optional insurance. Fortunately they never suffered any significant loss and consequently must have saved tens of thousands of pounds over their lifetime. So the choice is there, but you'd need nerves of steel or a very carefree outlook on life. I'm not brave enough to waive insurance . . . or buy a thatched property.

 

[Cubist]

Coo, the compliments are coming thick and fast. Brave now am I?

Nope! Foolhardy, a few pennies short of a shilling perhaps, stark staring bonkers or maybe just a hopeless romantic.

AS the old saying goes, Fools rush in where........

 

[elizabeth]

Thank you all for such a wide range of knowledge and approaches and your personal experiences (thank you Cubist and Owain) we very much appreciate your responses and they have gone along way to alleviating our concern over being refused insurance cover based on us requiring, potentially quite disruptive work, to armour the cables which we now know is not a necessity. What may be asked for is an RCD for the lights in the loft - something we can organise anyway.
In the meantime, I will keep looking for an electrician and will report back on our progress.
Thank you all once again.
Elizabeth