Dust rains in our dinner

[JoceAndChris]

Hello all lovelies

Now that I have been scared off hacking off the exterior render (Got a nice gaggle of different stonemasons coming - exciting) I am turning my attention to the problem of my underground brick vaulted kitchen (1770 ish) that rains a nice daily dose of dust into our dinners.

Please no-one panic here- I am not making any severe changes to this historic space but would like to paint on a clear coat of something on the ceiling to stop this happening. Having read so much about breathability I am wondering if it is a wise course, but on the other hand a little more brick falls off each day which is clearly not good. I read it might have been limewashed originally but I love its current red colour so much.

I won't touch the walls, which are a festering hell hole of damp. On the other side of this space is an underground rain water tank and water does ooze up all over, but I've got used to this now. I'd like to fill in the tank as I suspect it leaks and certainly washing in untreated rain water is an unpleasant experience (though a good way to get rid of those unwanted guests). However for the forseeable future we will rely on our rainwater tank as Anglian water refuse to connect us unless we build a pumping station. Emptying out the rainwater tank and trying to find a leak would be tricky and leave us without sufficient water. Problems, problems.

Any ideas about a clear paint for that brick?

 

[RobT]

Hi Joce & Chris,

it would be easy to discount limewash as most people associate it with the colour white.

However, with a little red ochre pigment the wash can be tinted to a 'red' that suits and then applied to the bricks to help consolidate their surfaces and reduce dust. If only a thin thin wash is applied the character of the bricks can also be maintained.

A few trial patches would help you make the best decision.

regards

Rob

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Rob. That sounds great- I had associated limewash with being white. Presumably a websearch will reveal where I can get the ingredients to make this brew.

Regards, Joce

 

[MdB]

You might find this useful reading: http://www.mikewye.co.uk/chart.htm. There is likely to be other suppliers closer to you. I think you can also get hold of just the pigment if you want to mix it in with your own limewash.

 

[Moo]

Just a thought - what is your rainwater tank made from, and how near the kitchen wall is it?

 

[biffvernon]

Wallpaper paste - and I'd look for a brand that does not contain fungicide.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Fab a roo, thanks MdB. That looks just the job.

Biff, wallpaper paste sounds interesting and I seem to remember I owe u a big Mwwwwh from a previous thread. That paste may be what I resort to if the lime is all too scary; me and puss have asthma.

The rainwater tank is made of metal (steel?) and is around 25 years old. It is on the other side of the kitchen wall. In an ideal world I would remove it, excavate the earth (obviously after consulting with a surveyor and archtitect), create a sunken path on the other side of the wall and put in some of the Georgian windows lying around the outbuildings to let in more light. This would give me a dry wall, nice windows and an interesting sunken path. But it is not an ideal world.

 

[Penners]

Wallpaper paste - and I'd look for a brand that does not contain fungicide.

Biff - was it you who suggested isinglass to me, some years ago, for a similar application (ie: breathable sealing of bricks)?

The rainwater tank is made of metal (steel?) and is around 25 years old. It is on the other side of the kitchen wall. In an ideal world I would remove it, excavate the earth (obviously after consulting with a surveyor and archtitect)

I do urge you not to do anything without taking qualified professional advice first. Some friends of ours in Gloucestershire had an underfloor sump, and they were advised not to remove it or fill it in. There were all kinds of surface water drainage arrangements that ran into it, and - according to their advisor - its removal or filling in could also have upset the stability of the subsoil.

I should add that theirs didn't leak.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Penners.

Isinglass? Will explore further.. and yes, removal of anything that seems to be holding up the wall is not to be taken lightly. Perhaps we will never be free of moisture anyway due to this house being built into a hillside and natural springs occuring all over it.

It does seem rather a shame that the previous owner did not think to to put the tank on the other side of my kitchen, where any leaks would naturally have drained down the slope away from the property.

 

[chuckey]

Very interesting. I have a similar problem, imagine a brick built outhouse, single skin, back of it 3' under the ground, front above ground level. It is made of a rather soft victorian brick with lime mortar. Now the back wall is damp (green mould on the bricks) up to a height of 3', front is absolutely dry. There is a partition wall running of the back wall, where the bricks are crumbling away and so is the mortar. Its very slow, but when ever I sweep up there is more red brick dust and more sand - the lime seems to have disappeared. The bricks and mortar look absolutely dry. But the other side of this partition the bricks are painted and the rising damp has forced the paint of the bricks right up to 6' above ground level but only in a few restricted spots.
I reckon its all to do with the evaporation rate of the "rising damp" and perhaps the chemical content of the water.
From my experience I would not seal the brick at all, cos' you will have bits of sealer falling into your soup as well as the dust. If the sealer is too effective you might even have the odd brick.
What to do?, have not really dwelt on it, but it will be to cure the dampness at source, like removing bricks and replacing with engineering bricks +DPC + waterproof cement.
My outhouse is going to be a utility room, but as we have lived here for 28 years and the kids have left home, the requirement is no longer urgent!
Frank

 

[JoceAndChris]

From my experience I would not seal the brick at all, cos' you will have bits of sealer falling into your soup as well as the dust. If the sealer is too effective you might even have the odd brick.

Oh dear, the plot thickens, along with the soup.

Surely this is a bit of a pessimistic view to take and it's worth a try? Do we go back to the limewash? (sorry Biff)

 

[biffvernon]

Do we go back to the limewash? (sorry Biff)

In your first post you did say you wanted a clear coat. That rather ruled out limewash. Wallpaper paste is the cheap and cheerful solution that will probably do the job without doing anyything irreversible to the brick.

Yes Isinglass is another thing. Which leads on to Beeck Fixative - get it from Womersleys. This is seriously good stuff for the job: http://www.womersleys.co.uk/acatalog/silicate_paint.pdf

 

[Moo]

+ waterproof cement.

What a thing to say on this forum! Go and wash your mouth out with soap!!!!!!

 

[Penners]

Thanks Penners.

Isinglass?

That quizzical word suggests that you're somewhat younger than me! Isinglass was used for (among other things) preserving eggs, back when I were a lad. I can remember my mother having a huge bucket full of the stuff, with several dozen eggs immersed therein. Its common name was Water Glass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isinglass

 

[MdB]

Isinglass was new to me though I do like a good real ale so I should have known.

Water glass though brings back all sorts of childhood memories of making crystal gardens.

(picture source http://www.flickr.com/photos/14833125@N02/2444619657/in/photostream/)

It appears that water glass (sodium silicate) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_glass is a different stuff to Isinglass.

As for preserving eggs, check out 4,5 and 8 here: http://www.oldandsold.com/articles11/miscellaneous-recipes-13.shtml. Useful stuff lime...

Oh and JoceAndChris, you may have noticed some threads go off at a weird tangent on occasions.... (and it's quite often me that causes it.)

 

[biffvernon]

Sorry I got a slightly wrong url for the silicate primer. try: http://www.womersleys.co.uk/acatalog/FIX_EN.pdf

Unlike organic binders such as acrylic dispersions or
silicone resin emulsions, BEECK FIXATIVE does not
set physically by „bonding“, but exclusively through
silicification – the chemical reaction between mineral
surface, fillers and potash waterglass. No surface film is
being formed. Instead, a silicified, microporous unity of
surface and coating is created. The result is an optimum
service life even on severely weathered facades as well
as ideal building physics properties.
Water absorption and water-vapor
diffusion characteristics*):
W24-value: > 1 kg/(m2h1/2)
sd-value (H2O): < 0.01 m
*) valid for prefixation with BEECK FIXATIVE
Physical/Technical Characteristics:
Density: 1.16 g/cm3
pH value: 11 (undiluted)
Dynam. viscosity: < 500 mPas
DIN 4102: non-flammable / A1
BEECK FIXATIVE has a natural bactericidal and fungicidal
effect due to its alkaline character. Therefore BEECK
silicate paints can do without preservatives and are less
susceptible to mildew and algae. Considering general
rules for building physics, toxic and environmentally
questionable biocides can thus be omitted.
Color tone: Clear-transparent.
Drying:
Under normal conditions, safe to coat after about
12 hours. Protect fresh coatings from rain, e.g. by
using scaffold tarpaulin.
Yield:
For prefixating moderately absorbent, smooth surfaces:
approx. 0.04 kg BEECK FIXATIVE per m2.
Available Sizes:
5 kg, 10 kg and 30 kg.
Cleaning:
Clean appliances, tools and clothes with water immediately
after use.
BEECK’sche FARBWERKE
Beeck GmbH& Co KG
Internet: www. beeck.de
e-mail: beeck@beeck.de
Management:
PO Box 81 02 24
D-70519 Stuttgart
Tel. +49(0)711/ 90 02 00
Fax +49(0)711/ 9 00 20 10
Factory:
Gottlieb-

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Biff, This Beeck fixative looks like another wonderful German development. And it's clear, which means the lovely red, apricot and plum tones of the brick can retain all their glory. And it won't burn my eyes out, hopefully. And it won't drop in my soup. I'm going to buy some. Wonder if I can persuade dear OH to take me to Germany next weekend for this purpose?

As for preserving eggs; yes! Soon I'll be getting some dear little Brahma chicks so rather timely advice and tangents are often the best bits of these posts. Thanks for kind sharing of experience.

Joce

 

[dragonfly]

Am interested in the wallpaper paste remedy as I will shortly (with the aid of number 610 from strippers.....) exposing the 300 year old brick wall in my bathroom. Having done a test patch, most of the brick is pretty sound, but it would be nice to know that I will be less dusty getting out of the shower than I was going in!

Btw will be stripping off about 6 layers of emuslison, underneath which there seems to be 2 layers of chalky paint which I assume are lime based, followed by a 2-3mm skim of something that could be lime as it is so chalky, but was obviously put on to smooth out the unevenness of the brick. And number 610 gets through the whole lot with ease. Another Strippers fan!!!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Btw will be stripping off about 6 layers of emuslison, underneath which there seems to be 2 layers of chalky paint which I assume are lime based, followed by a 2-3mm skim of something that could be lime as it is so chalky, but was obviously put on to smooth out the unevenness of the brick. And number 610 gets through the whole lot with ease. Another Strippers fan!!!

But why? I am very inexperienced in all this but that does seem like you are just inviting problems, whereas I am trying to solve existing ones. And stripping off the old lime plaster? I don't mean to judge you but I would be genuinely interested to hear about the acceptability of this, in terms of conservation and preservation, from others.

I will be leaving my lime plaster firmly in its place if at all possible to do so.

But perhaps I misunderstand.

 

[dragonfly]

Here goes with the history (bear in mind I have been there for 18 months). The main part of the house is 300 years old and brick built. A timber framed and rendered extension was built on the back about 120 years ago. So the original exterior wall makes up one wall of the bathroom which is in the timber framed bit. In the mid to late 80s "renovations" were carried out. The exterior render was "repaired", new windows installed and (horrors) an injected DPC to the whole building carried out. The gaps around the windows were filled with orange expanding foam, the render repairs in metal mesh and cement and the whole lot sandtexed - with a few more coats added over the years. For that authentic olde worlde look, the window frames and sills have all been painted in black gloss, again several coats. Inside, a lovely 80's bathroom was installed, with cork tiles glued to the floorboards and then varnished, and the walls made nice and flat with plasterboard and vinyl emulsion.

On the former external brick wall, an attempt was made to smooth off some of the brick with this thin coat of something - it doesn't date to the original extension as there was a mirror in a very ugly wooden frame screwed to the wall, and when we took this off we encountered bare brick. So what this 'something' is: it looks like lime and is very chalky and very very soft having been covered for years in vinyl silk emulsion. It is not a proper plastering job as it barely covers some of the brick in some places and in others is 2-3mm thick. It looks as if it has been applied to even up the surface of the brick before painting. A lot of the top layers of paint have flaked off and been repainted, leaving an obvious uneven appearance. These subsequent layers are also flaking and peeling off across a lot of the wall, hence we decided to strip it right back as the surface was so bad. When I get back to the bare brick my plan is to leave it exposed as the brick is so lovely. I really don't think I am doing any more damage, in fact, at least the brick will now be able to breathe. As regards the 3 timber framed walls, well the plasterboard has been stripped off exposing some gorgeous but sadly woodworm-munched beams and lime lath and plasterwork between which is literally powder. So we are in the process of sourcing suitable timbers to replace those beyond saving and treating those which will be left. We were told in our original structural engineer's report that this would probably be needed, buit it is still really sad to see the damage left by shoddy 80's work, and we are using sympathetic materials wherever possible.

The bathroom became the priority job due to a leaky shower, as we didn't want to let the damp caused by that to do any more damage. Having stripped the shower out out we can see how much damage the cement render has done so that will be the next job. We are in the process of getting the drawings done, ready for LBC submission so hopefully will be re-rendering with lime over the summer. Incidentally, the few patches of original lime seem to contain river washed pebbles so the CO is keen that the new render looks the same so any suggestions on how this might be achieved, please feel free to suggest - the experienced lime plasterere we consulted hasn't seen anything similar in this area so was puzzled. Also, CO says we have to repair existing windows even though they are obviously 'modern' replacements. Any advice on that one gratefully received.

Sorry for the long post, and when my computer at home is repaired, I will try to upload some photos - always assuming they are not lost (I do back up but haven't in the last week, S*ds law.....)