Dry Rot in Grade 2 Listed Property

[oldstuff]

Hello,
I am in the process of purchasing a grade2 granite built property circa 1830 which has an extensive dry-rot issue in the lounge and dining room areas. A couple of specialist companies have been out and their reports stated that all of the ground floor wood work will need to be removed including part of the staircase! They also recommend that the floor voids are concrete filled and tanked to prevent future outbreaks.

The dry-rot was caused by a leaking internal downpipe and poor floor ventilation due to carpet covering the vents. The property has been empty for some time.

While this work was being done I was thinking of removing the partition wall between the lounge and dining room to create a larger lounge area.

My question is what are my chances that the local authority will allow the floors to be repaired in this way i.e. concrete filled and the partition wall removed? There is a covenant in the home information pack dated 1987 stating that one of the doorways will be bricked up and a new wall erected and this work appears to have been done so the local authority was flexible then! Also the rear of the property has double glazing while the front has traditional sash windows. The double glazing is not mentioned under the covenants in the home information pack! Could the double glazing have been done without authority from the council and would I be liable if the council decided this was not in keeping with the building even though it was done in the past by previous owners?

What other measures can I take whilst the sale is progressing to safeguard my investment as I know nothing about listed property rules and regs!

Thanks in advance

J Keen

 

[skier-hughes]

1. Read lots and lots of the posts here.
2. Speak to the conservation officer with an open mind of how works will be done and how you might fit in with the house, the house isn't meant to fit in with you.
3. If the damp was caused by an internal pipe leaking and poor ventalation, I could save you loads of money, repair downpipe, remove carpet, let dry out, repair wood. Why on earth do you need tons of concrete???????????
4. Who was the specialist? You want a conservation wood specialist not a damp company, one who can advise on how structurally sound the wood still is/isn't.
5. Ask lots more questions as well.
Graham

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Welcome to the forum

The only way to find out for sure what the local authority's view on any of your proposals (or on the work that has already been done) is to ask them. Given that it seems some of the work already undertaken may not have had the listed building consent it requires, it would make sense for you to make contact now, and be completely open and honest about the matter, since responsibility for putting right anything that has been done wrong will pass to you when you complete your purchase - at the moment it's the vendor's responsibility.

Very briefly, the solution suggested to the dry rot problem does not sound sensible. Sorting out the leaking downpipe and improving the ventilation (not blocking it off by filling under the floors) should be first priorities. In most cases, unless there's a spectacularly bad infestation, timber removal need only be minimal - it will also require listed building consent.

 

[Tom]

I would question to the end why either company recommends filling the floor voids with concrete. The cause of the dry rot is known and providing that has been remedied why would it happen again?

As regards changing the layout, what the previous owners did was adding to the property (new wall and bricking up a doorway). What you propose is to remove an exsiting wall from the building....a completely different scenario. However, you say it's a 'partition wall'. Do you mean it's an original wall or do you mean a stud partition wall? If it's the latter I would imagine you'd have no problem in getting permission to remove it. However, if it's the former, it will probably be far more difficult if not impossible to get permission.

As regards the DG, if this has been done without consent the local authority could insist that it be removed. I also believe that the current owners could be liable to prosecution, although I'm not sure how strict things are when it comes to prosecuting people for damaging listed buildings. We have heard of some horror stories on this forum where people have got away scott free with criminal activity :evil:

Anyway, at least you're asking questions...which is a good start Someone with far more knowledge than me will be along soon to help you. In the meantime, welcome to the forum and keep us posted!! Oh, and we all enjoy a bit of 'period property porn' now and again

Jaqy

 

[Flyfisher]

Welcome to the forum.

My immediate thought is that I don't understand why it is necessary to add concrete and tanking to prevent future occurence of a problem that was the result of a leaking internal pipe. Surely just fixing the pipe and repairing the damaged woodwork should be enough? I'm not a dry rot or structural expert by any means but I would be asking them why they recommend concrete and tanking.

Because the property is listed, any alterations will require Listed Building Consent. The LBC process is usually adminstered under the control of the local authority Conservation Officer (maybe called Historic Buildings Officer). Check your local authority website for more information. I would recommend you try talking to the CO about your plans for the property before you commit to the purchase.

Obviously I'm only guessing, but I'd be surprised if there was a problem with permission to remove a partition wall, but there might be an issue with laying new concrete floors.

You should be able to obtain a copy of the listing description of the property from the http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/ website. This should tell you when the property was listed and should describe the property in reasonable detail. LBC would only be required for alterations after this date, so that might help determine the 'legality' of the double glazing. Even so, you should ask the vendor about any changes to the property and ask them for copies of the LBC.

If you discover, or suspect, any works carried out without LBC then it's reasonable to reduce the offer price to allow such things to be corrected. Bear in mind that it's a criminal offence to alter a listed property without permission, so the vendor hasn't really got a leg to stand on if such works can be proved. Also bear in mind that the local authority can insist on unauthorised works being reversed at the current owners expense. So, if you take on a listed property with unauthorised alterations, you inherit the liability to correct such alterations (although I don't believe you can be held criminally responsible for them).

It would be helpful to include your approximate location in your profile so that others in your area may be able to recommend local firms that may be able to help with such issues.

Edit: seems that others have beaten me to the 'submit' button!
I'd just add that Gareth is a professional in such matters, so take particular note of his post.

 

[Flyfisher]

Oh, and we all enjoy a bit of 'period property porn' now and again

Do you think this requires further definition for newcomers to the forum in case we end up with dodgy photos in a period property setting?

 

[Matt Green]

A couple of specialist companies have been out and their reports stated that all of the ground floor wood work will need to be removed including part of the staircase! They also recommend that the floor voids are concrete filled and tanked to prevent future outbreaks.

Fantastic. That's probably more damage than the dry rot has caused.

Fix the down pipe. Remove the bits of the floor that are no longer fit for purpose. Ensure the ground levels are 6" below finished internal floor height. Thoroughly rake the solum to remove any timber debris. Dry the solum with fans. Put the floor back together with pre-treated timber isolated from the masonry and solum with DPM or slate. Incorporate inspection hatches in the floor at the base of the down pipe and in the downpipe boxing to monitor the situation in the future.

No wet timber. No dry rot. No problem.

Matt.

 

[Tom]

Oh, and we all enjoy a bit of 'period property porn' now and again

Do you think this requires further definition for newcomers to the forum in case we end up with dodgy photos in a period property setting?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, yes, possibly.....although it would keep Penners amused for a while :roll:

'Period Property Porn'

Definition:
Pictures, preferably decent, of period properties in various states of dis/repair. Ensures immense pleasure in those with an interest in said properties.

Will that do?

Jaqy

 

[MdB]

Matt is also an expert. Listen to him as well as Gareth.

 

[Michelle73]

Matt is my dry rot guru, and his wonderful advice doesn't cost a fortune as others will have you believe. Just good, honest, sensible directions that even I can follow!

Heres a wee strand of rot that I pulled from the edge of a window frame at the weekend.....ughghghh

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Welcome to the forum.
I'd just add that Gareth is a professional in such matters, so take particular note of his post.

And I'd add that I feel a bit surplus to requirements - your post was rather better than mine.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm truly flattered, but can only really claim to be passing on the expertise I've read (mainly) on PPUK (OK, I have some experience of the listing process from an owner's perspective). I'm sure my font of knowledge would run dry long before yours, and the other true professionals on PPUK, when questions get really tricky and detailed.