DOUBLE GLAZING -GRADE II

[Anonymous]

We have recently purchased a Grade II Listed property in the North of England. Over the years it has suffered at the hands of many unsympathetic DIYers. In fact it was only listed to stop a previous owner (in the 80's) doing anymore damage. The Listing mainly applies to the external appearance and not the interior. In the late 80's Listed Building consent was given to install four Lower Ground floor Windows, unfortunately it did not stipulate materials and UPvc was used. We have applied to replace all the windows to the rear of the property with wooden yorkshire sash windows made to measure, however due to the fact that we are on a very busy main road and a high elevation, asked that we be able to utilise double glazing. It has been suggested by the Listed Buildings Officer that we can have double glazed doors but not windows. Has anyone else been successful in gaining listed building consent for double glazed wood windows

 

[Anonymous]

If a building is listed then it’s the whole lot, inside, outside up to the garden fence. There’s no such thing as listing that applies only to the external appearance. Of course if the inside has been gutted and has no historic importance then obtaining Listed Buildings Consent for internal alterations may not be difficult but you still need that Consent.

As to the windows, weren’t the 80s weird times. I’m working on a listed building where the previous owners had actually received a grant to put plastic windows in. I’m now making some wooden ones to replace them but without a further grant. In another house, in a conservation area, I shall soon be making some Yorkshire sash windows with integral secondary glazing. The sound reduction will actually be better than dg units and the Conservation Officer is happy. If, JS, you e-mail me, (click on my name above) I’ll send you details of how I’m doing it. You can then persuade your joiner to do likewise.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with Biff. Our house faces onto a busy road and we have secondary glazing that effectively removes all street noise. The secondary glazing was designed so that it was almost invisible from outside.

Rgds

 

[Anonymous]

This whole listing thing confuses the hell out of me.

Our house is not listed, but the CO is looking into it.

Our CO when I asked him about replacing parts of the house, told me that even if the house was listed, if the windows were D/G then we wouldn't be forced to change them back, if the guttering was plastic, they couldn't force us to replace it with cast iron if we wanted to change it. He said the listing was for the old parts still in situ.

Which to me would mean if you have D/G and want a more sympathetic D/G you should be able to do it, with consent.

Then again I'm so new to this, I'm learning all the time, but I'd be interested to read more opinions on this!!!!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

"If a building is listed then it’s the whole lot, inside, outside up to the garden fence. There’s no such thing as listing that applies only to the external appearance."

May I present the exception that proves the rule?

TG 1826/7 AYLSHAM MARKET PLACE
3/61 (SOUTH SIDE)
19.1.52

GV Barclay's Bank (facade
only) (formerly listed as
No 1 Market Place)

II

C18. Red brick, pantile roof. Three storeys. Facade of five bays. Sashes with
glazing bars. Flat gauged arches. Moulded brick drip moulds over ground and first
floor windows. Moulded eaves cornice. Parapetted gables. Adjoining facade of four
bays with pedimented door case almost totally rebuilt.

(IOE 228289)

 

[Anonymous]

That's correct, the listing applies to the condition the building was in at the date of listing.

It leads to all sorts of difficulties for me as a CO - we can't, for example, realistically serve repairs notices on buildings that were wrecks when they were listed, even though all the neighbours keep phoning to complain about the disgraceful state that building XXXX is in.

Of course, some local authorities have little bits of grant aid available which can help to pay for undoing some of the unsympathetic alterations.

LBC is required for works which affect the character of the LB, "as a building of special architectural or historic interest" - I would argue, and often do, that undoing bad, pre-listing, alterations doesn't require consent provided we are kept informed of what's being done (of course, without LBC the VAT office are unlikely to accept that it's an alteration to you'll pay 17.5% - swings and roundabouts).

 

[Anonymous]

There are all manner of oddities though if you look at what was listed in the past - these would not be listed now. Many listing descriptions say 'not inspected internally' - it just ain't gonna happen these days!

Listing is getting more difficult - and much altered buildings have to be fairly special to get a look in. It does seem that EH/DCMS are not interested in listing 'more of the same' and some sort of behind-the scenes beauty contest takes place.

There are places where listing has been refused recentlyyet there are less interesting examples down the road which have been listed in the past.

I'm currently interested in a rather stunning land empty ate 18thc house in a side road in Penrith which used to be subsumed by a garage/car showroom, now demolished - it's not listed. Yet I suspect, although the exterior, especially the doorcase, is lovely, it will be too altered internally to have listed.

No CO at the moment I gather...

And as for listing wrecks - look at Kirklinton Hall Cumbria...



http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk

 

[Anonymous]

Cheers Gareth, it's getting clearer by the day. But I should read posts in more detail, as JS didn't say he had D/G on PVC. Ooops.

Graham

 

[Anonymous]

As street noise (people, not traffic!) round here is beginning to become rather intrusive, I'm increasingly drawn to the idea of secondary double-glazing.
However, I'm not quite clear what it is. Is it one big window screwed to the inside of the existing frame? Does it mean that the windows can't be opened?
And - is it horrendously expensive?

 

[Anonymous]

We have a Grade II listed house and we got LBC to have double glazed replicas. They had to be exactly like for like and were not cheap but they look ace.

We have them painted on the outside but have left the natural wood inside. I wouldn't have bought our house unless I knew we would definitely get consent.

 

[Anonymous]

Moo - have a look at this site, to give you some idea - although Biff tells me that laminate (not ordinary glass) secondary glazing is best for noise reduction - rather than double glazing, which of course you won't want in your lovely listed house! Also of course much noise comes in through gaps - as do draughts - so DIY (instead of the bits of card) with DIY Sash Windows kit or get it done professionally via a firm such as Ventrolla.

The problem with DG (one of the problems with DG) and period buildings is the ungainly glazing bars you need, I gather that 30mm is the minimum which is possible. Ours are all about 20mm and 30 looks plain horrible.


http://www.stormwindows.co.uk

 

[Anonymous]

It would be interesting to see what your windows are like. Ant chance of a picture, Dianne?

 

[Anonymous]

Our existing Yorkshire sliding sash windows which are single glazed have a 30mm glazing bar already, and we have found a manufacturer who will produce a D/G wooden unit with 22mm bars, with each pane being an individual unit. We have looked into secondary glazing and whilst we agree that it has come a long way recently, we have a problem internally. Several of the windows are set in Victorian walk in recesses and as such have no window sill, something which we have found since removing some horrendous dry lining stud walls where false hardboard sills were removed. A great feature but not practical for secondary glazing.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes - some windows did have from original - early sashes for example, and some other types of window but so many didn't have thick bars, none however had double glazing with sealed units, so it can't be said to be a like for like replacement.

So much historic joinery (and glass) being junked though which is capable of repair, and it's sad.

I gather the problem is that yes you can possibly put in DG units into thinner bars, but the material with which they are sealed degrades in sunlight so the units may fail unless buried in a fair chunk of wood. That information is coutesy of Biff. So 30 mm is the minimum which is safe - and in many houses with Geo and onwards sashes that is simply too thick.

Ventrolla claim that they can make most single units pretty draught and sound proof and I reckon that maybe people don't investigate that option.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm a bit puzzled though re windowsills - we have one bit of secondary glazing which I appreciate is a bit outdated but it actually hangs on hinges on the frame. Or did, as I took it off in the summer and forgot to put it back! I think you can also get some which is attached by a magnetic strip. Much I think will depend on individual windows and individual manufacturers.

ventrolla I add only works on sash windows.

Something else which is a puzzle is why some BCO's seem to want air vents in DG units.

 

[Anonymous]

>we have found a manufacturer who will produce a D/G wooden unit with 22mm bars, with each pane being an individual unit.

That's interesting, JS. Can you describe the details of how it's done and/or tell me who the manufacturer is, please?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm also very interested in this, as we haven't yet made our windows.

Graham

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks,. Evelyn. I'll investigate further (starting with the price!)