Double Glazing for Grade 2 listed buildings ?

[masochists-r-us]

We're in the process of getting quotes to replace all the front windows on our grade 2 listed 17th Century farmhouse - single glazed of course. I was surprised therefore to be told by a glass manufacturer that because of part L from October of this year we will have to install double glazed units as the new regs will also apply to all listed buildings. I was surprised to hear this. Can anyone out there corroborate this ?

 

[MattW]

The new guidance notes to the Part L regs that come into force in 2010 can be read here: http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningandbuilding/pdf/partlf2010consultationvol2.pdf

They state "

Historic and traditional buildings

3.6 When establishing reasonable provision for the conservation of fuel and power, special considerations apply to the following classes of building:
a) listed buildings;
b) buildings in conservation areas;
c) designated ancient monuments;
d) buildings which are of architectural and historical interest and which are referred to as a material consideration in a local authority’s development plan;
e) buildings which are of architectural and historical interest within nationalparks, areas of outstanding natural beauty, registered historic parks and gardens, registered battlefields, the curtilages of scheduled ancient monuments, and world heritage sites;
f) buildings of traditional construction with permeable fabric that both absorbs and readily allows the evaporation of moisture.

3.7 When undertaking work on or in connection with a building that falls within one of the classes listed in paragraph 3.6, the aim should be to improve energy efficiency where and to the extent that it is reasonable and practically possible. The work should not prejudice the character of the host building or increase the risk of long-term deterioration of the building fabric or fittings. The guidance given by English Heritage should be taken into account in determining appropriate energy performance standards for building work in historic buildings. Particular issues relating to work in historic buildings that warrant sympathetic treatment and where advice from others could therefore be beneficial include:
a. restoring the historic character of a building that has been subject to previous inappropriate alteration, e.g. replacement windows, doors and rooflights;
b. rebuilding a former historic building(e.g.following a fire or filling a gapsite in a terrace);
c. making provisions enabling the fabric of historic buildings to “breathe” to control moisture and potential long term decay problems.

3.8 In arriving at a balance between historic building conservation and reasonable provision for energy efficiency improvements, it would be appropriate to take into account the advice of the local authority’s conservation officer."

The english heritage document is "Building regulations and historic buildings, English Heritage, 2002 (revised 2004)."

The wording in this is almost identical to the current Part L guidance which is for the local council surveyor to take into the account the advice of the CO in getting the balance right. The final decision is taken by the surveyor that signs off on the building regs certificate, not the CO.
As such, the final call resides with the council's building surveyor

 

[Gareth Hughes]

However, changing from single to double glazing is a change that will require listed building consent. Which will be granted (in most cases) only over my dead body. As it isn't a criminal offence to fail to meet the requirements of a Building Inspector, but it is a criminal offence to carry out works to a listed building without consent, I see the government has made another rod for everyone's backs with this one.

And the phrase

The guidance given by English Heritage should be taken into account in determining appropriate energy performance standards for building work in historic buildings.

isn't tied specifically to the 2004 document, therefore EH's recent research on the subject of windows falls into the same category (briefly, shutters, thick curtains, etc., are pretty much as good as double glazing)

 

[middi]

Nothing has changed really , has it ?

The CO will usually insists on single glaze, the bulding regs surveyor will insist on thermal efficiency, the buffled owner gets shoved from pillar to post untill a compromise is reached where the stubborn inspectors stop arguing and secondary removable internal glazing ends up keeping everybody happy.

Exept the owner. ( the temp. gazing usually ends up in a skip :wink: )

 

[Flyfisher]

, therefore EH's recent research on the subject of windows falls into the same category (briefly, shutters, thick curtains, etc., are pretty much as good as double glazing)

Agreed, but isn't this a similar situation to the bathroom fan issue we've discussed before? The regs specify the need for ventilation and a fan is acceptable, although not mandated, yet the bathroom may have an opening window to provide adequate ventilation but that is not deemed acceptable by BC because it may not be used.

Same with shutters and thick curtains. I suspect BC would not accept such a thermal solution on the basis that they may not always be used.

It can't be long before someone tests the existing BC-CO conflict in court; probably by someone who wants to install DG windows in their listed property in order to save the planet and the 'big bad CO' won't let them.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

, therefore EH's recent research on the subject of windows falls into the same category (briefly, shutters, thick curtains, etc., are pretty much as good as double glazing)

Agreed, but isn't this a similar situation to the bathroom fan issue we've discussed before? The regs specify the need for ventilation and a fan is acceptable, although not mandated, yet the bathroom may have an opening window to provide adequate ventilation but that is not deemed acceptable by BC because it may not be used.

Same with shutters and thick curtains. I suspect BC would not accept such a thermal solution on the basis that they may not always be used.

It can't be long before someone tests the existing BC-CO conflict in court; probably by someone who wants to install DG windows in their listed property in order to save the planet and the 'big bad CO' won't let them.

I wish they would, even if the result won't be as they suggest (National Trust, 3 million members: Friends of Building Control, 3 members)

 

[biffvernon]

Friends of Building Control, 3 members)

Name names.

 

[Penners]

, therefore EH's recent research on the subject of windows falls into the same category (briefly, shutters, thick curtains, etc., are pretty much as good as double glazing)

Agreed, but isn't this a similar situation to the bathroom fan issue we've discussed before? The regs specify the need for ventilation and a fan is acceptable, although not mandated, yet the bathroom may have an opening window to provide adequate ventilation but that is not deemed acceptable by BC because it may not be used.

Same with shutters and thick curtains. I suspect BC would not accept such a thermal solution on the basis that they may not always be used.

It can't be long before someone tests the existing BC-CO conflict in court; probably by someone who wants to install DG windows in their listed property in order to save the planet and the 'big bad CO' won't let them.

I wish they would, even if the result won't be as they suggest (National Trust, 3 million members: Friends of Building Control, 3 members)

Do we really believe that the entire membership of the National Trust has an appreciation of the deleterious effect of double-glazing or uPVC on the aesthetics of a historic building?

If only.....

However, I did once spot the entire membership of Friends of Building Control in a phone box.