Doors 'out of wind'

[Tc345]

Hello all,

I have a number of doors that, according to the internet, are 'out of wind'. I.e. they're not square or flat so that the top hits the frame before the bottom on one side but not the other.

I've been pondering how to resolve this and i'll try some hinge adjustment but it was suggested to me (and on another thread here) that adjusting the door rebate is another fix where we don't want to buy a new door. In this case the doors are likely pretty old, including a very wide and heavy the front door, so there's no chance we want to replace them.

So my first question is; what are the best tools for the job and have other PPUKers had success with this in the past? Any tips? There are a bewildering array of planes available and it looks like a rebate plane (possibly a double one with a bullnose too) is the best fit for the job.

We also have a load of lovely oil-filled door hinges that rise and fall to close doors. However the ones on our old french doors don't rise anymore and so don't work as intended. So my second question is; any idea what sort of crafts/tradesperson could help with this? The french doors in question need to be refurbished anyway as they're also out of wind but the hinges may be playing a role in this too. My assumption is to start with a good master carpenter, and I mean a real craftsman type.

Thanks.

 

[MikeG]

In the nicest possible way, if you are asking what are the best tools for the job that you don't have the skills necessary to do a job like this. Therefore, you need a decent craftsman to do the work for you. If you are anywhere near the Essex Suffolk border then I could put you in touch with one or two capable of doing this sort of work. The person I'd rely on most to do the very best job (me) is a little too busy at the moment, sorry! Again, as with the other thread where this cropped up, some photos would help.

 

[88v8]

The French doors are a particular problem as they have to close with each other. You may need to plane a long taper and fit it to one door where they meet.
But that creates a problem with the lock.
Would need to see them, really.

Other doors - are the stops solid run or planted? That is to say, are they in one piece with the frame, or are they nailed on?

Particularly with internal doors, they are likely to be planted, in which case you very carefully remove them starting at the bottom, with a chisel, paint scraper, bolster, mallet, nail pullers, and reposition them to remove the wind. I had to do that with most of the internal doors in our previous house. No need to touch the hinges. No planing.

To avoid problems with the locks, regard them as a fixed point and reposition the stops accordingly. If the stops are destroyed in the removal process, make new ones, but with care that will not happen.
The stops should be nailed with lost-head wire ovals, punched in. As the wood is old and dry, slightly predrill the nail holes, that will also assist in ensuring the stops go accurately into their new positions. Shellac the nail heads/holes then fill with putty.

Inevitably, the paint will be mangled. Burn off the stops completely and carefully burn off the paint on the inside of the frame. Assuming you have some left-over matching paint, you can then repaint and it will not show.

So far so simple. However, if the stops are solid run with the frames, it becomes a matter of perhaps moving the hinges, perhaps making tapers to glue in, or perhaps accepting that they do not close very well and using expanding foam tape as a draught excluder.
http://affixit.co.uk/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=f29baa6ad7102bf8004caa49930f45da&keyword=expanding&x=27&y=12
Not at all Period, but very effective.

New rising butt hinges are available, in qualities from excellent to orrible. A remarkable number in stainless, a material that has progressed from being special to being ubiquitous.
https://www.locksonline.co.uk/products/Bronze+rising+butt+hinges.html
Stainless can of course be painted.

Fitting new hinges to old cutouts can be fiddly, thickness differences. Rising butts have to be accurately positioned so they are both carrying the weight.

What size are yours? I never heard of them ceasing to work, perhaps they need oiling...
You know of course that they are handed.

These https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/V-RARE-VINTAGE-ENGINEERED-SCREW-RISING-BUTT-4-S-BRASS-HINGES-RESTORATION-DIY/392025718780?hash=item5b468dbffc:g:MF0AAOSwo2la3PQz I have never seen before and likely never will again.

Ivor

 

[Tc345]

In the nicest possible way, if you are asking what are the best tools for the job that you don't have the skills necessary to do a job like this. Therefore, you need a decent craftsman to do the work for you. If you are anywhere near the Essex Suffolk border then I could put you in touch with one or two capable of doing this sort of work. The person I'd rely on most to do the very best job (me) is a little too busy at the moment, sorry! Again, as with the other thread where this cropped up, some photos would help.

Brutally honest, I'd expect no less!

A recommendation would be great, to be honest this was my first thought but after talking to a couple of people it was suggested it might be able to do it myself. I'm no slouch when it comes to DIY and have plenty of experience, but I wouldn't describe myself as a master carpenter at all. I've built cabinets etc, but they've been pretty rudimentary.

Photos here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/1TdyucyISMs0L9yL2

I've taken a couple of the large front door and tried to show the gap at the bottom, similarly with the french doors. I've also taken a couple of the hinges on the french doors where i've done some stop-gap (geddit?) draughtproofing before the doors are more comprehensively refurbed and draught-proofed.

Ivor, thanks for the advice. The hinges quite a bit more elaborate that the ones you link too and i've been advised they're oil filled, there's a (wobbly) video of them in action in the album linked above and I've taken a photo of the ones on the french doors and unpainted ones elsewhere in the house. My main concern is that we no longer have to slam the doors to get the locks to catch, which we do at present and which cannot be good for the doors... For the draughts, there's plenty of scope to sort that and as you may notice we've fitted some insulating curtains which make a huge difference. ?

 

[Me!]

Hello and welcome,

You are the second person on here recently with this sort of problem, and it really is very difficult to explain the angle of the photos we need to be able to suggest the best solution.

What we need to see please is how the door shuts against the stop bead, or frame. So like this -

 

[Me!]

and then how that stop bead or rebate is positioned on the frame like this on the catch side of the frame,
at the top -


and the bottom -

 

[Me!]

because it is perfectly possible to make a door shut tight even when things are very wonky -

 

[88v8]

Mmm, your pics are a bit black cat. a little more generosity with the flash powder...... Lovely house. Good quality, which perversely makes repairs more difficult.
Never seen such hinges.

Those French doors, the narrow version of this copper strip draughtproofer will help
http://www.drywall-emporium.com/proper-copper-atomic-strip-draught-excluder-117-p.asp
Used to be Atomic brand.
Don't use the pins that come with them, they're only plated and will soon rust, buy some solid brass pins.
There was a tool for springing the strip, like this. I have one somewhere, and some of the strip.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-atomic-strip-springing-tool-1783304648

Otherwise, you're looking at having the doors taken away, totally dismantled and put back together flat. My neighbour did that with his French doors twenty years ago. I don't know where you'll find someone to do such a job, and if you did it would almost be cheaper to have thee chaps make you replicas.
http://www.beardevansjoinery.co.uk/
except they're miles distant. But a conservation joiner, I'm sure there is one near you.

As regards the single doors I come back to the question of whether the stops are planted or solid-run. If the former, a chap who can make even the most rudimentary cabinet can do what is required.

Ivor

 

[Tc345]

Thanks for the photo advice Me!, i've tried to follow your instructions here but its still difficult to see whats going on (especially with my draughtproofing efforts getting in the way): https://photos.app.goo.gl/163Cl4WczlHRLol22

Ivor, i'm not too keen to have the doors dismantled and put back together again and certainly dont want to replace them (esp. given the house is listed and in a conservation area). As you note they're very good quality and in good condition otherwise. The Atomic brand stuff looks good and there are remnants on the front door and we have it on some other internal doors, I just didn't know what it was called and so couldn't find any to buy.

It may not be clear in the linked photos but I strongly suspect they're solid run. If we take the locks as fixed points as you suggest it seems the approach should be to remove some of the stop where the door pushes against it until the lock can be used without slamming. If there's still a gap at the other end then a judgement could be made about either adding to the stop with a tapered piece or using other draughtproofing measures would work better.

I've also looked for conservation joiners and the BWF seems to be a good resource http://www.bwf.org.uk/choose-wood/find-a-supplier-for-your-project

 

[plasticpigeon]

I have a few doors out of wind, including my front door. It meets at the top and to about half way down so the locks fit fine, and then it goes off at the bottom, leaving a cm gap or so. My solution is to leave it alone! Same in the house. A couple of doors I have to pull a little harder to latch, but so be it!!! Your house looks very high status, maybe the doors are thicker and stiffer, making leaving them less of an option, but I think leaving things alone is not a bad solution if you can. One thing about hinges, if you need to close a gap in a rebate at the bottom of the door, moving the top hinge out or bottom hinge in on the frame could result in the door hitting the floor on opening so the only way to overcome this would be to refit the hinges in the door. Closing a gap at the top is less troublesome.

 

[88v8]

because it is perfectly possible to make a door shut tight even when things are very wonky -

Indeed it is. One of the doors in our previous house was so warped that with the stop at the extreme bottom hinge edge of the frame, the opposite top corner of the door was outside the frame... so I had to thicken the frame.

PP good point, if one starts moving the hinges it can make the door self-open or self-close, and drag on the ground.

The Atomic strip is pretty good. One has to be quite fussy about pressing evenly on the crease to make it stand up, or it can end up rather wavy navy. And one needs to decorate before fitting, once it's on, it's on.

Ivor

 

[88v8]

If we take the locks as fixed points as you suggest it seems the approach should be to remove some of the stop where the door pushes against it until the lock can be used without slamming. If there's still a gap at the other end then a judgement could be made about either adding to the stop with a tapered piece or using other draughtproofing measures would work better.

Yes, in a nutshell.

Burn the paint off the edge of the stop before you start planing & chiselling. Old paint is a superb blade blunter.

Ivor

 

[Tc345]

Thanks Ivor for the further suggestions.

I'll also be following PP's advice and leaving the hinges alone, making as minimal changes as possible until the doors work far more as they were intended to.

PP, you're right that the doors are pretty stiff so it's not just a case of a little extra pressure. Unfortunately there's more slamming involved than we'd like from a noise pov or is healthy for the doors.

 

[Me!]

And to go back to your original question, yes I think a rebate plane would be the best tool to use for this (after taking the paint off as Ivor has suggested).
That is a nicely controlled and gradual way of removing additional timber until you get to a point where you are happy with the fit.