Door Surrounds

[atlasfever]

Hello:

Background: Georgian, 1st Floor, Flat, Refurb.

Question:
I was looking through the previous council applications for my flat, and I read that there were elaborate door surrounds for two regular size doors in the flat, in the main room of the piano nobile. Unfortunately, I can't find any photos on the council site, but it's clear that the previous owner removed them (I noticed that even the remaining architraves don't match the rest of the architraves, not at all, and definitely modern.

So, the room has three 9 foot georgian sash windows, and I plan to copy the architrave from there, and use it for the two doors. However, I don't have an example of the surround. I believe the council refers to something sort of placed on top of the doorway. Does this make sense to anyone? So, my georgian doors are about 7foot, and this would sit on top.

Does anyone know:
1. Where do I find these designs, and how do I match it?
2. The windows do not have such surrounds, and given the ceiling height being only 4 inches above the windows, likely never did. Does that seem odd to you? Should the doors and the windows look identical, except for height?

Thanks

 

[plasticpigeon]

I don't know much about the Georgian period, but I have seen door frames with a pediment over the top like the ones here. However I have a feeling this was more usual for the front door and a simpler frame would be more normal inside.

http://www.simplymouldings.co.uk/architectural%20features01.htm

Are you friendly with your neighbours??? Maybe they have the original mouldings. I have been quoted around £80 to have a tool made up to cut a custom moulding, and then extra to machine, or failing that, I have found that Midland mouldings are very good at matching different architraves.

http://www.midlandwoodworking.co.uk/productarchitrave.html

 

[Owain]

Windows may well have been simpler as they would have had curtains etc to fancy them up. Doors would require ornament.

 

[Penners]

You need to be a bit careful about loading up a Georgian house with mouldings, frills and fancies. High status two houses would probably have had their fair share of such things - in the public areas at least. However, as you get into the more domestic areas of the house - bedrooms, staff rooms and so on, such decorations would probably have diminished.

So the first question you need to ask yourself is: how high a status house is this?

The Georgian Group has a wealth of information about Georgian exteriors and interiors, with a lending library and a bookshop. You might like to consider joining the group to have access to these reference works, in order to satisfy yourself that the changes you plan for your flat are in keeping with its age and status.

http://www.georgiangroup.org.uk/docs/pub/index.php

 

[Nigel Watts]

If I remember correctly your flat is about 1800.

A seriously grand late 18th C townhouse could have had something like this:

However I think it unlikely that this is what yours had originally. Although a smart, but less grand, early Georgian townhouse might have had a pedimented doorcase like this:

I think it is even less likely in your case. My guess is that it was a plain moulded architrave, with nothing above it.

In one of your earliest postings you included an image of the room showing an elaborate but distinctly un-Georgian doorcase around a large double width opening, with a curious panelled infill and door opening into a kitchen, which I though was probably Victorian or Edwardian. If someone went to the trouble of fitting this it seems quite likely that they would have treated the two smaller doors in the same way. It could well have been these rather than the original Georgian architraves which your flat's previous owner replaced, which would account for the description.

The original door architrave could well have followed the pattern of the window architrave, as you suggest.

 

[Nigel Watts]

.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I agree with Nigel, and also with Owain that the windows would likely have had swags and tails.

From what I recall of the property it would have been a grand upper middle class London house, now divided into flats with all the usual anomalies of kitchens and bathrooms having been fitted into reception areas. Plus there was all the discussion about whether those interior double doors were original or not. Any progress on that? As it's now a flat, my feeling is you can do what you like within reason - the original shape of the building has gone so it's about creating a mood rather than a recreation of what was there. And as it's London and presumably worth a lot more than our 4 bed detached villa with 4 acres(!!!) I think you can be every bit as fancy as you like as the next people will either rip it out or keep according to whim.

If you just wanted an inexpensive little flourish over the doors, painted in a nice colour, this kind of thing

http://www.uk.bondsplastermouldings.com/product.php/1003/egg_with_floral___bead_frieze__beading_or_dado

Or a full on mahogany pediment which would necessitate matching mahog doors, which would cost many thousands.

http://www.onlinegalleries.com/art-and-antiques/detail/pair-of-mahogany-overdoor-pediments/111781


http://www.doors-carved.co.uk/catalogue/catalogue-6.htm#item_3

But first I'd go and have a look round the John Soane museum and observe the very very plain architraves and how richness is created in other ways. Far better to spend you money on the right drapes, paintings and furniture in my opinion.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=john+soanes+house&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=tp8rUc3RMI6R0QWu3oH4Cw&biw=1024&bih=488&sei=I6ArUeS8GqK30QXWsoDgCw#imgrc=h_mHis5conRtWM%3A%3BYeQwf3Mb-JHbEM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpadregiovanni.files.wordpress.com%252F2010%252F03%252F2862283850_d6d1f4817d.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpadregiovanni.wordpress.com%252F%3B500%3B375

 

[JoceAndChris]

The original door architrave could well have followed the pattern of the window architrave, as you suggest.

Ours, of the same period, (which new evidence suggest was built as a villa for a gentleman, not a servant's cottage as previously thought), does precisely that. Very very simple - a rounded profile with a groove each side. I recall Feltwell found a company that make them, I'll try to find it.

 

[Feltwell]

I recall Feltwell found a company that make them, I'll try to find it.

Probably Dressers, if it came from me:-

http://www.dressermouldings.com/products/mouldings.html

Their catalogue is one of the better ones, they have a large range of mouldings. Except for the architrave that I needed for Feltwell Towers of course, which it turned out is specific to a long-since-closed local joinery company :roll:

Still, another local joinery firm was able to machine up some for me, at a price of course.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Yes, that's it! 8) thanks Feltwell.

The panel mouldings are incredibly like what's used for architrave here.

 

[atlasfever]

Can I just say, that you guys are amazing.

Thank you for the replies.

To answer:

Well, I'm not sure if my home was a classy one or not originally, but clearly it is classy today

I really agree that I should focus cash on what I put into it (curtains, art, furniture), but I'm open to adding pediments if I can justify it from a historic point. As much as I have some flexibility to do what I want, I would like it to be relatively in line with the age of the building.

At the moment, I'm having the orig window architraves copied to use for the rest of the flat as the previous owners did a hatch job on the original ones.

But, your photo, Nigel, made me think of something: As we've peeled the plaster paper off, I see that we have a dado rail, without plaster below it. It seems to be a wood board. It's not at all attractive, and there was a layer of plaster on top of it. Now, most of the flat has had an 80s card (think thin, bendy wood) in that area, but a few spots have much older wood. Have you seen this before? Re-panelling is out of the question, budget wise, but I'm kind of ok with it as I'm not such a fan of half wall panelling anyway. I suppose if it was original, I'd have loved it and kept it, but can't bring myself to pay money for something I don't like

Thanks

 

[Nigel Watts]

In the 1800's (by which I mean the decade 1800 to 1810) mouldings generally became smaller and simpler. In some of John Soanes's interiors mouldings almost disappear altogether, and by then a panelled dado would have been thought a little old fashioned I think. If this is the period of your house I would be cautious about doing something too elaborate in the absence of historical evidence. If it was my house I think I would keep the mouldings fairly simple and focus instead on the wall treatment - a nice strong Regency colour or wallpaper, with some bold pictures and mirrors perhaps?