Does original lime plaster have to be removed ?

[dave]

Would be very grateful for some advice.

Mid 1800's listed terrace house. Moderately damp original lime plaster around head height for a few feet on ground floor party wall. Some deterioration to surface coverings either side of the wall. Source of damp not entirely established but appears to now be drying out and not getting worse.

The local council are attempting to insist that this original lime plaster be immediately removed, even though undamaged. They would like it replaced with a waterproof sealant type cement based finish.

Is there any way they can enforce this course of action on a listed property ?

Any thoughts or similar situations that anyone else has come across would be very much appreciated

 

[FamilyWiggs]

This sounds completely contrary to most received wisdom & practice regarding damp in traditional buildings and particularly the treatment of listed buildings.

Who in "the council" has advised this? I presume it is LBC/building regs?

Anyway, I'd contact your conservation officer and sort it out asap.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Why is the council currently involved?

 

[dave]

Rather than contact ourselves the neighbour on the other side of the party wall, who we have always got along with fine, has asked the council to resolve the problem.

The damage to surface decoration appears to be worse on the neighbour's side, suggesting to me that their side might be the wetter and might actually be the source of the problem. However someone from the council, who obviously isn't too familiar with how older buildings work, has decided in their wisdom that we are the guilty party and is demanding the above course of action.

The CO wasn't exactly impressed when he was informed but I'm not sure whether he has the power to overturn the other department's ruling and insist the existing Grade 2 plaster work is retained in these circumstances.

I am obviously concerned that the original lime plasterwork is going to end up being removed against my own and the CO's wishes.

Really struggling to know where to turn to for assistance.

There is a lot of pressure for a very rapid resolution which is making this all extremely stressful.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

I understood the CO pretty much trumped the other officials - but Gareth can confirm this I'm sure.

A couple of thoughts spring to mind - firstly it is probably best to have a good chat with the neighbour if this hasn't already happened. Secondly, unelss you have identified and resolved the cause of damp, then slapping "waterproof" gunk and cement around will likely mask/make it worse by trapping in the moisture only to pop out again later. Thirdly, the best course of action is undoubtedly to allow the walls to dry out naturally and reassess the situation. Breathable lime plaster is actually far more likely to help the situation than cement.

I still don't understand why the council are involved, if this is a damp issue between to private houseowners?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Sounds like Environmental Health may have got involved with the neighbour (is next door rented?)

No, CO's don't always trump other departments, however the work that is being described will require Listed Building Consent (which should not be forthcoming) and if not applied for and approved, whoever causes the work to be carried out will be committing a criminal offence. You might try telling the council to stick that in their pipe and smoke it.

 

[dave]

"if this is a damp issue between to private houseowners?"

Basically yes.

The neighbours chose to involve the council without any discussions with ourselves

I obviously agree entirely with your comments about cement not helping to resolve the problem.

However I am really not sure whether the "CO pretty much trumped the other officials"

Fingers crossed that is the case

 

[Schoolmarm]

Me neither, unless the council owns the houses it is zip to do with them.

I would be checking chimneys, flashings, slates, anything at all on the roof that could cause it.

Different height of roof?

You aren't obliged to do anything other than find the problem, then whichever house the problem is "belonging" to would have to resolve it. If it got tricky your respective insurance providers might need to be informed and/or involved.


And after all that, it is STILL nothing to do with anyone what is on the wall in your house, especially if someone is demanding that you remove lime plaster.

We need pics, inside and out, and sight of the letter from the council.
Don't do anything and especially don't do anything on the strength of a phonecall or conversation.

Sorry, I crossposted as I couldn't read all that easily.
Gareth has the correct inside knowledge.

 

[dave]

Thank you very much for your input Gareth.

It is EH that are involved. Neither property is rented.

"No, CO's don't always trump other departments, however the work that is being described will require Listed Building Consent (which should not be forthcoming) and if not applied for and approved, whoever causes the work to be carried out will be committing a criminal offence. "

This is pretty much entirely what I thought was the situation.

EH have already commenced their proposed course of action earlier this week without giving us any notice whatsoever or our agreement.

How would you suggest I proceed to try and stop them from returning again this week.

Can an immediate halt (injunction ?) on proceedings be enforced without some form of court ruling.

EH seem adamant that they are in the right even though I have suggested otherwise.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

If Environmental Health are doing it on your side of the wall without your consent, then they are also committing trespass and criminal damage, on top of works affecting the character of a listed building without consent. (And probably a breach of the Party Wall Act too)

But if your explanation of the situation is correct I fail to see what it has to do with them. Perhaps the local press might be interested in taxpayers' money being spent on a private property?

However, your solicitors need to be phoned on Monday morning first thing.

 

[dave]

Thank you so much again Gareth

Unfortunately there hasn't been any money to even heat the house this winter, let alone pay solicitor fees.

EH are well aware of the situation and have advised that they will be carrying out the work and then placing a second charge (?) on the property to eventually recover their alleged costs for wrecking our house.

"Perhaps the local press might be interested in taxpayers' money being spent on a private property?"

Had been thinking the same as there have been plenty of other local examples of council "waste" recently.

However I am worried that if we do no need a court ruling that any press involvement might prove unhelpful.

It has been suggested to complain direct to the council CEO.

The whole situation is a nightmare.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Have they found an actual cause for the damp?

Has the cause been rectified?


You are only seeing and telling us about a symptom, not the actual cause. Are your buildings insured and is legal cover included?



What am I missing here?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

It's not a property called The Old Monastery, is it?
(just had a terrible thought, that's all)

 

[Flyfisher]

EH have already commenced their proposed course of action earlier this week without giving us any notice whatsoever or our agreement.

How would you suggest I proceed to try and stop them from returning again this week.

This all seems very odd. I can imagine EH issuing some sort of order to do certain works (even though this would be a criminal act on a listed property without LBC, as Gareth has pointed out) but you seem to be implying that they (EH or their contractors) are intending to do this work themselves without your consent as the owner of the property. I find it hard to believe they have any right to enter your property without some sort of court order.

But if EH is adamant about such actions then I can't see them being stopped without some form of official/legal intervention and I would be calling my solicitor first thing Monday morning. If costs are a concern then I would call the Citizen's Advice Bureau - although some solicitors would still take on such a case and CAB may be able to advise a suitable firm. I would also be calling the CO and advising them of the potential for imminent criminal damage to a listed property - presumably they will have some legal clout to protect the property, perhaps by applying for a court order of some description themselves.

How bizarre it would be to have one part of the council pushing for one sort of action while another applies for legal constraint on their actions - and all over a privately owned property.

This has all the makings of a bureacratic nightmare when a friendly chat over a cup of tea with the neighbours might well be able to diagnose and solve the problem entirely amicably. Schoolmarm has sensibly pointed out the sorts of things that should be being investigated - things that might actually help solve the problem - instead of worrying about potential forcible entry and inappropriate works (not that I'm belittling the worry this must be causing).

Good luck and let us know what happens when the CO gets involved.

 

[robgil]

why not get a second or third opinion from some clued up damp experts to give you some ammunition?

 

[dave]

This isn't looking very positive at all.

The CO section at the council after initially being very supportive are now basically being overruled and silenced by some "higher authority" within the council.

They have said they can no longer even discuss the matter !

However they have supplied the names of a few alternate sympathetic experts who might be to assist. All some considerable distance away and realistically likely to require a considerable outlay which I simply do not have the funds to cover.

Perhaps most worryingly I have now been left with the impression that the council's contractor is going to be left to break in again and do pretty much whatever damage to the original fabric of the building they see fit. As long as the work is reinstated (presumably at my expense) this would get round the LBC issue.

Is this really right ? It seems outrageous behaviour.

Who else might I realistically get involved very rapidly. At such short notice do you think any of the following would be able to act fast enough to stop or at least limit any further damage ?:

English Heritage
SAVE
SPAB
Victorian Soc
Georgian Soc
Police - surely it is a criminal offence
Press - local, national, Watchdog, Trading Standards etc
Local Govt. Ombudsman

 

[Gareth Hughes]

All of them.

And your local councillor.

If your version of events is correct (sorry to doubt, but unless you've been ignoring letters from the council for months I can't believe it's come to this), then they are exceeding their powers by miles.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Please PM me with details.

 

[Flyfisher]

Perhaps most worryingly I have now been left with the impression that the council's contractor is going to be left to break in again and do pretty much whatever damage to the original fabric of the building they see fit. As long as the work is reinstated (presumably at my expense) this would get round the LBC issue.

This seems incredible. Have they given you any legal documents to support this action? Breaking and entering must surely require some sort of legal process.

I really think you need some legal advice of your own - Citizens Advice Bureau at the very least.

Dave, in case you're not aware, Gareth is a CO. Do take up his offer to PM him the full details of what's been happening.