Disputed bill

[Nigel]

We have had a bathroom specialist in, fitting our new bathroom. It was a complex enough job involving including tiling the floor, wall mounted sink and taps/shower. A lot of plumbing and plastering work was required as the new suite differed a lot from the old more traditional suite. Because of this we used this bathroom specialist as they would execute the whole job, rather than using our usual tiler/plumber and co-ordinating things ourselves.

The works are finished and they have done a great job but it did prove quite complex. During the build their sub contractors advised verbally that the job was proving more complex than expected.

At the outset we executed the builder's standard contract which was headed up "agreement" and included a stated "total price". The small print on the back stated that the Company would do a detailed survey and any (price) changes were to be advised to us in writing within 14 days. No changes were advised.

At the exit meeting the builder requested significant extra monies relating to the job proving more expensive than expected. This was broken down and related to scope change (guilty as charged) and various other cost overruns (e.g. plastering spend and sealing the tiled floor).

We have settled the o/s balance in terms of the original "total price" and also paid the costs attributed to the scope change. We refused to pay the balance advising that we had a "total price" and their failure to properly cost the job (it seems, based on sub contractor comment) was their problem not ours. We might not have proceeded based on the final claimed cost.

In our view our position is defensible and the fact their contract is titled "agreement" and references "total price" means we were entitled to believe the total price was just that. At no stage did they advise us that cost overruns were occurring.

Any views and/or experience of such disputes and how they end up resolved - this is a first for us.

Thanks


Nigel

 

[Gervase]

I can't offer much sage advice, save to suggest that the builders were at fault in not advising you of significant changes.
I try and make it a rule that if either the time or the money involved in a job diverges from the agreed estimate by 10 per cent either way, I tell the client.

To take the builder's view for a moment, however, how much contact was conducted through the subbie and how much through the builder?
It's always best to talk directly to the contractor as well, because the subbie might not be passing on the fact that extras have been incurred, and the first the contractor knows is when the subbie submits his bill.

 

[Flyfisher]

From your description of events it sounds like you've done the right thing (I'd have done the same).

You have paid for the work that was originally agreed, at the price agreed. You have also paid for additional work (changes) that was agreed during the course of the work. I don't think you can be liable for anything else if you have not been specifically informed of additional costs or agreed to them.

You don't say how things currently stand or the reaction of the builder but now is the the time to be very careful about keeping written records of everything and also writing to confirm your understanding of any conversations that have subsequently occurred (or will probably occur).

I take Gervase's point about the builder/subbie relationship, but that's really not your problem. Anyway, I suspect it's a fair bet that the builder won't be paying the subbie for anything the subbie hasn't told the builder about.

Stick to your guns, pay only for what you agreed, keep written records and let the builder make the next move (if any).

 

[Lime]

Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I would have requested a "quotation" at the start.
Quotations are fixed and cannot be varied no matter how difficult the work turns out to be.
Subsequent changes to the quote can bear an additional charge however.

 

[Flyfisher]

Wouldn't 'Agreement' and 'Quotation' amount to the same thing in this case? The important thing is that there is no mention of 'Estimate'.

 

[skier-hughes]

Quotations may not be fixed and are the last thing you want to commence work on. You need a contract giving you the actual cost of works which is what it appears Nigel had.

A lot is going to depend on how much the difference is, how much you like the job, how much you feel they did extra for you to complete the job to your specification and how you feel they did in asecertaining the price difference and communicating it to you.

It appears the last falls flat on it's face, but the others may be good, so you may feel that you might like to meet some further costs, but really you have signed an agreement and met your side of it, now anything you decide to pay will be down to goodwill on your side.

I'd wait to see what teh company comes back to you with, then have a face to face meeting and see if you can reach a mutually agreeable price and if not, see what he does in trying to sue you for the money and take legal advice on protecting yourself.

 

[middi]

As far as I am concerned if there was an agreement, estimate, guestimate or a quotation in writing, any deviation or excess costs should also have been made clear to you in writing during the course of the works and not as an unknown " shock" sum at the completion of works.

Whilst these costs may well be justified it woul he unprofessional of the contractor not to clearly inform you before hand.

Tell him you are skinned and will pay the exess at 50p a week untill clear, ( it would be nice to see his reaction. :wink: ).

 

[skier-hughes]

I agree that the way you have been informed is abysmal.

 

[Penners]

As a matter of interest, is the word "quotation" a legal commitment to do the work at that price?

Obviously an "estimate" is just that - a best-guess at what the job will cost, and liable to vary (up, but oddly never down!). However, the word "quotation" seems to me to imply that - so long as the spec quoted on doesn't change - the price won't change.

Anyone know the legal position?

 

[Lime]

As a matter of interest, is the word "quotation" a legal commitment to do the work at that price?

Obviously an "estimate" is just that - a best-guess at what the job will cost, and liable to vary (up, but oddly never down!). However, the word "quotation" seems to me to imply that - so long as the spec quoted on doesn't change - the price won't change.

Anyone know the legal position?

That is my understanding.

 

[Flyfisher]

Mine too, although I don't know how this assumption would stand up in a court of law. There are general principles of 'fairness' and 'reasonableness' though so I'd certainly be prepared to fight my corner based on a quotation meaning a fixed priced for a specified item of work.

Of course, when obtaining a written 'quotation' it is very important that the description of work is also very clear and unambiguous, otherwise any subsequent argument may not be so much about the price but more about exactly what work was to be done for that price.

The other thing I've heard is that courts do not take kindly to being used lightly and there is an expectation that litigants take reasonable steps to settle any dispute among themselves before resorting to court action. So, if you do take action, it's advantageous to be able to present the court with a history of events and actions you have already taken to try to settle things, e.g. give a contractor every opportunity to do a satisfactory job, don't give them excuses for non-performance, be reasonable in any demands, be patient if things require re-work etc etc. Then, if the worst does happen, your action won't be deemed as 'frivolous' by the court and you really will be seeking legal help as a last resort.

I've only had two experiences that came close to court action, both for unsatisfactory work rather than overcharging. In both cases, after allowing the main contractors a number of return visits to fix the problems, I told the people concerned enough was enough and I was going to get someone else to finish the work to the required specification and send them the resulting invoice for payment.

In one case this was enough (in fact the main contractor was horrified to learn about the problems I'd had with the subcontractor and was absolutely fantastic in then helping to resolve the problems) but in the other case nothing happened until I sent them a copy of the county court summons I was about to file (again, give them every opportunity before actually going to court). The ridiculous thing was that the actual problem in question (regarding a fireplace installation) was then immediately fixed with only a couple of hours work - but it took the sight of a court summons for them to take my intentions seriously.

Fortunately, in my experience, I've found that most people want to do a good job for a fair price. I've certainly had instances where things have gone wrong but have found that an early discussion of the problem can work wonders, with no bad feelings at all on either side. In fact, it's often only when things go wrong that the good suppliers really shine!

 

[Manks]

It sounds like you did the right thing as far as it has gone. But if there has been no agreement regarding the outstanding sum there is still a problem. Though legally there may not be, there is still a problem.

My guess is that if this went to the county court the builder would not have a leg to stand on. The builder will know this, and if he doesn't he would pretty soon get advised that way.

All of that said, the builder has done work for you that he did not think he would have to do. He is out of pocket. It sounds to me like he is out of pocket because YOUR HOUSE was either in a worse state than expected or for some other reason the job was harder. Perhaps he SHOULD have stoped work and said that the job was getting out of hand, and you would have been over a barrel. But he didn't do that, he got on and achieved what you wanted. Some would say his heart was in the right place.

I would have done exactly what you did. In fact I have done exactly what you did. Last year a joiner did the same to me, and the cheeky sod even tried to charge me travel to and from the job. I reduced his bill and told him to sod off. I explained to the person recommending him that I had done this, and he claimed to understand completely. There has been no apparent come-back.

Last year my ex accountant sued me for two sums of money. One was me personally and the other a limited company I used to own. The claims were almost entirely trumped up and the judge knew it. He cunningly awarded the settlement in such a way as to make it impossible for the claimant to claim the money. On one point I thought the claimant had actually been right and I stayed behind to speak to the judge, asking him if I COULD pay it because I thought it fair to do so. The judge had been so annoyed by the claim that he smiled and said "I wouldn't bother if I were you".

A third instance is that I am suing someone at present because they caused me losses of about £3k. There is no doubt the money is owed and it is likely I will recover it. In busines suing and being sued sometimes happens. I only ever sue if I am sure I will win. I am sure I will win this one.

So, three examples of situations of financial dispute. I have won two out of three morally and legally and am confident of a third vistory. So I feel pretty good about the situation... no of course I don't. Legal action is a pain in the neck, it is expensive and it can be embarrassing. Even when matters don't reach court the tension of the whole situation is stressful. I don't intend to sue anyone again for less than £10k.

So, what I would do in your situation is this: Call the builder and have a chat. Explain that you were shocked by the size of the bill and it would really have been better if he had told you earlier. Make a point of mentioning your contract. He should be in no doubt that he has no legal claim to the money. Then tell him that you appreciate that he got the job done and that you understand he had to do extra work that was not his fault. If you can aford to, give him half the balance.

By doing the above, I suspect that the builder will think you are OK. You will think you are OK and the tension will have gone. If the builder is as good as you say, he is worth remaining friendly with. If the builder doesn't play ball then there is nothing you can do and I personally would not pay a penny more. But if HE thinks he is potentially stuffed and you offer an olive branch, it will relieve the situation.

In the heat of contracts and money exchange it is all to easy to get caught up with right and wrong. It is all very well being right, but if falling out with someone who has done a good job, being called a bad payer or potentially being sued are things that will play on your mind, a softer way may be a better way.

Paul

 

[skier-hughes]

An estimate is a "guess" at the price for the work to be done.
A quotation is a fixed price for a piece for work to be done.
But until you sign a contract neither is binding, because all they have done is said that
Work x is likely to cost £y - estimate
Work x will cost £y - quotation

Neither an estimate or a quotation is a piece of paper which says they will do the work, the company may turn around and say they don't want to do it anymore because they are too busy etc, nothing you can do about it.

You may decide that you get a better price, so the builder cannot come to you and make you have him do the work.

What is important is the contract between the builder and the customer, this contract should be based on a quotation and not on an estimate. It is the wording of the contract that is most important.

By themsleves a quotation or estimate are nothing more than that.

Graham

 

[Lime]

My understanding of a "quotation":-
It details the work that is covered by the quotation.
It is usual to set a time limit on the quotation whereafter it is null and void.
Once the quotation is accepted the agreement is fixed and cannot be cancelled by either party.

 

[skier-hughes]

That is true, but the acceptance of the quotation is then a contract, which may be just the quotation or a seperate agreement, which makes reference to the quotation.
Depends on the size of the company.
Of course a contract can be verbal, but it's much harder to prove in court what it's terms were.

 

[Flyfisher]

Companies usually formalise all the pre-contract discussions (be they estimates or quotations or whatever) by placing a 'purchase order'. The supplier then confirms the contract with an 'order acknowledgement', at which point a binding contract exists between the two parties with all the terms clearly defined.

Individuals tend to operate with less formal arrangements, which is where problems can arise. This is why reliable suppliers that you know and trust can be worth their weight in gold.

I've used the same plumber for the past 30 years and for some things we've not even discussed the cost before he's done the work! He was 80 this year and is still working, but I'm dreading the day he retires (or worse) and I have to find someone else.

 

[Penners]

Graham - if a builder has given me a quotation for a job, and I then write to him, offering him the work at the quoted price, doesn't that constitute a legal agreement that he will stick to the price (provided the spec remains unchanged)?

I accept that he cannot be compelled to do the work, but assuming that he does come and do it, isn't he constrained to carry it out at the agreed price?

 

[Penners]

I've used the same plumber for the past 30 years... He was 80 this year and is still working.

Poor chap! He's been trying to retire for 15 years, but he hasn't got the heart to turn you down. Leave the old boy in peace! :wink:

Mind you, I bet he's one of the few plumbers around today who still knows how to wipe a lead joint.

 

[Flyfisher]

Funnily enough, he did some lead work for me about 10 years ago where the soil pipe went through the roof and he was bemoaning the fact that 'youngsters today' wouldn't have a clue about such things. Not their fault, I presume, as they are probably not taught such things, but it's interesting to see how skills and needs can change so dramatically within a single lifetime.

As for not having the heart to turn me down, you're close to the truth in that he says he only really does work for his 'regular customers' these days and will only take on someone new if the job is really simple. Fair enough at 80 I'd say.

He's a real character though, small and wiry (good for crawling around attics, he says!) and looks as fit as a flea. Smokes like a chimney though - but apparently so did his father who almost made it to 100.

 

[BMcD]

Lime wrote:

My understanding of a "quotation":-
It details the work that is covered by the quotation.
It is usual to set a time limit on the quotation whereafter it is null and void.
Once the quotation is accepted the agreement is fixed and cannot be cancelled by either party.

This is also my understanding and it is always a good idea to follow up verbal confirmation with written.

As for your situation Nigel, as you have laid out above, it would appear you are in the right. If they state to inform you of extra charges and have not done so then it would be safe to assume that not extra charges apply.

If they claim extra charges because the sub contractor was more expensive than they thought then that is not your problem because your contract is with the builder not the sub contractor

If you have extra work done to your satisfaction then you ought to pay a reasonable price for it (although a separate quote would have been preferable).

If you decide to pay some of the disputed charges, make it plain in writing that the payment is for a disputed charge and is merely intended as a good will gesture and that in no way do you accept liability for any further payments. If you do not do this then it could be argued that by paying part of the charge you have accepted it and are therefore liable for the rest.

It will also be the builders responsibility to recover the sum so he may or may not want to drag it through the courts. If it is below £5K then it will be dealt with by the small claims and if you loose then you will be liable to pay the disputed charge and court costs but not legal expenses.

It is a good idea to write to the builder explaining your position and what you are prepared to pay for and what you are not prepared to pay for and why. Keep the letters amicable and lay out your keenness to get the situation sorted and keep it out of court.

Good Luck