Discovered fireplace with bad wall

[1610ness]

Hi All,
I live in North Yorkshire and own an old workman's cottage built around 1820 ish I have started the renovation of front small living room known as the snug. It has had some serious cement plaster on the walls for a long time and now the electrics are going we decided to strip it back and have it rewired and then lime plastered. We started on the original external wall (it is now a mid terrace but started off as a semi!) and discovered an old filled in fireplace with sandstone surround and what others think are bricked up bread ovens either side. But if you look at the chimney breast there appears to be plaster on the side within the wall so originally I was thinking that to make the fireplace disappear the wall either side may have been built up as the front of the sandstone has unfortunately been hacked off so a lot of work went into hiding it. Opening up the fireplace slightly inside there appears to be some pieces of sandstone which look like they have column style carvings on sop maybe they are what was hacked off the front? I daren't remove any more bricks from the fireplace until a local builder has had a look for safety. The state of the walls either side of the fireplace is also shocking like openings have been filled in with whatever cobbles were found outside! Hence the thoughts of bread ovens but peering inside the flue can't see any openings towards them yet.





So any thoughts about my discovery or what I should do with it?

 

[Feltwell]

Bumping your post back up the list, first ones take a while to appear.

Whatever was there looks to have been comprehensively hacked out. I don't think you can do much more with it than cover it all over again - shame the fireplace was hacked about. The fill material in your "bread ovens" does look pretty loose and at the very least wants pointing up with lime mortar prior to plastering. You're right to be careful about removing it, with no lintel or arch visible above it could well be holding up a fair chunk of the wall above. With the fireplace however I'd say the bricks that are in there aren't doing anything structurally.

Others will no doubt be along to comment!

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

Oh dear, what a mess.
Well, at least you have a fire opening. Do you still have a flue and a chimney?

Have to agree with Feltwell, your fire surround is probably not saveable in any meaningful sense. However, get the carved bits out, and see if anything can be done with stone dust and resin.
http://www.plastic-surgeon.co.uk/repair/stone-fireplace-repair/
The presence of a carved surround would suggest that the house once had some status.

Also agree that the bricks inside the fireplace can be removed, although if the flue has been dumped down there, there would be an awful lot of mess.

Bread ovens did not always have a flue. We have two. Hot embers were put in there to warm it up, then raked out afterwards. Remember that the fire would have been lit pretty well all the time so the chimney breast would have been warm anyway.
You may find traces of the iron oven door hinges embedded in the wall, although looking at the thoroughness with which everything has been obliterated, perhaps not.

Ivor

 

[1610ness]

Thanks for the replies,

There is a flue which goes up through the upstairs bedroom with a very quirky and wiggly chimney breast and up into the attic but we have no chimney stack, this might have been merged with the cottage that was built onto the end of ours but then at some point mid 20th century was put into disuse. The couple next door renovated their house 12 years ago and had the chimney stack rebuilt, there are 2 pots and flues on it but they only use one fireplace/flue downstairs (which is a little further along behind ours and so we get their heat) and they say there was no fireplace in the room upstairs so the spare chimney pot might well be ours but they had a slate put on the top to block it off so at least there has been no debris or rain coming down it for 12 years.

We don't think we will put the fireplace back into use as the room is generally warm anyway but we do want to open it and make a feature of it, using whatever original parts we can salvage.

I emailed the pics to my lime plasterer and he said it looked like (if not bread ovens there) there might have been alcoves either side of the fireplace although any lintels for these have long gone, so that is something we could consider putting back and having shelves fitted in them for storage. The other front room has a large chimney breast and fireplace which was converted to have a multi fuel stove a few years back, before then it was just an open fire, so this might have been the room that was the kitchen. The bedroom above this room has a bricked up fireplace too (I'm already itching to see what's behind that but I don't think my daughter would be too pleased as its her bedroom) and the chimney stack for these is still in good fettle.

The house was definitely just a 2 up 2 down workmen's cottage built for staff up at the local big house so not really a house of status, but I will definitely do my best to get these sandstone bits out without any more damage and investigate what they could have been - I do like a good jigsaw!
I will also keep an eye on the bits in the 'alcoves' to check whether there is any further evidence of bread ovens. Builder is now coming Thursday as he got stuck elsewhere last night, so we shall see what he says about putting in alcoves over having to repoint with lime mortar.

Thanks, Ness.

 

[bennoa1]

I'd start near the bottom and remove as much loose mortar as you can and vacuum out as much of the dust, damp down the area and repoint small sections at a time. I'd also try and tie in those cracks (looks to be 4 of them) which will strengthen the wall no end. Once complete I'd remove the bricks in the fire place.
I had to rebuild a large section at ours as I touched the bricks and they were all loose.
Problem wall once I'd removed all the pine cladding (big crack and loose bricks and the 2 pot chimney is about 20 feet above that so a hell of a lot of weight to hold up):

Bricks all loose:

Loose bricks all bedded in and crack closed up with a few bricks to tie across the cross where the levels allowed me to (still needs a bit more pointing):

Do you have an endoscope as you could get this into the gaps and see what is behind and up. They are about £15-20 and a very useful item, to have around for checking drains/in walls/under boards etc.
FFG

 

[Feltwell]

However, get the carved bits out, and see if anything can be done with stone dust and resin.
http://www.plastic-surgeon.co.uk/repair/stone-fireplace-repair/

Has anyone tried that firm? I'm curious - I've got some stone lintels that are cracked and need a cosmetic repair, but they are well weathered and I'd like any repair to blend in with that. They're locked firmly in place so perfectly safe, just doesn't look great. One of them is cracked due to some numpty drilling expanding rawlbolt fixings into it :roll:

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Where abouts in North Yorkshire are you---there is a Member on here who has spent some 4 years renovating his cottage in Whitby--I cannot remember his PPUK name, but hopefully he will pick this up and help you.

 

[1610ness]

Based between Northallerton and Thirsk, Whitby is about an hour and a half drive away but worth the drive for a day out!

 

[MatthewC]

Your fire surround is probably not saveable in any meaningful sense. However, get the carved bits out, and see if anything can be done with stone dust and resin.

I think I would sort out the rest of the wall on both sides before I removed the fire surround - it might just be the only thing holding up the whole wall! It looks as though mere re-pointing might just not be enough, with all those poorly placed bricks, especially the ones on their side.

 

[a twig]

However, get the carved bits out, and see if anything can be done with stone dust and resin.
http://www.plastic-surgeon.co.uk/repair/stone-fireplace-repair/

Has anyone tried that firm? I'm curious - I've got some stone lintels that are cracked and need a cosmetic repair, but they are well weathered and I'd like any repair to blend in with that. They're locked firmly in place so perfectly safe, just doesn't look great. One of them is cracked due to some numpty drilling expanding rawlbolt fixings into it :roll:

Used them to repair a timber worktop at a contract I was working on in a previous life - installer had put a huge gouge into a timber worktop - they did a decent job in hiding it, and was a lot cheaper than a new worktop. Haven't used them for stone stuff though.

 

[88v8]

Your fire surround is probably not saveable in any meaningful sense. However, get the carved bits out, and see if anything can be done with stone dust and resin.

I think I would sort out the rest of the wall on both sides before I removed the fire surround - it might just be the only thing holding up the whole wall! It looks as though mere re-pointing might just not be enough, with all those poorly placed bricks, especially the ones on their side.

Mmm, yes.
Wasn't intending that the main elements should be removed, I'm sure they're structural. What I was thinking of is the carved elements that PO mentioned were amongst the debris. I would then try to stick them back in-situ, either myself or that company I flagged, if they could be stuck back at all.

Structurally, I think this fireplace was at one time much bigger. The picture.... the arch is very flat. It starts just to the left of the current opening, about a course above the lintel of the surround, and then it's fractured where the flue has been hacked into. See?
I'd say the opening was originally perhaps twice bigger to the right than the fireplace that's there now. An inglenook, forsooth.
The arch is so flat, it must have had a wrought-iron support across beneath it, but that's gone and forgotten.

No, I wouldn't remove the surround, otherwise the whole lot will come tumbling down.

Ivor

 

[1610ness]

Well, builder came and he is going to come up with suggestions as to what to do, we may need to put in a steel beam to keep it safe as although it's not currently moving it needs properly sorting and not just repointing and plastering over. We intend to stay here for a long time so want to know it's safe. He also pointed out the original stone hearth on the floor which unfortunately has been cemented upto, it's quite big really. He has said we can have an old stone hearth he has going spare that was taken out of a cottage years ago, so that's something!

 

[1610ness]

Dug out, very carefully, from inside the fireplace the first piece of carved section, it even has some paint left on it!



What I think may have happened is that the fireplace was made smaller to accomodate a victorian fireplace or hob grate and to stop the rainfall coming down the flue as it goes straight up. So the carved sandstone surround was hacked flat and covered over. Then that has been taken out probably when the chimney stack was removed, then bricked and plastered over.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Based between Northallerton and Thirsk, Whitby is about an hour and a half drive away but worth the drive for a day out!

If you google Wynd Cottage holiday home rental, it will bring you to Andy who is also on PPUK and has spent four years restoring his cottage in Whitby---he can also be found under I do Stuff--unfortunately I cannot remember his pen name for PPUK so I cannot be more precise about his contact details--- he has an excellent knowledge and understanding of the sorts of prob;ems that you are encountering and I am sure will help if he can. Good Luck

 

[1610ness]

Structurally, I think this fireplace was at one time much bigger. The picture.... the arch is very flat. It starts just to the left of the current opening, about a course above the lintel of the surround, and then it's fractured where the flue has been hacked into. See?
I'd say the opening was originally perhaps twice bigger to the right than the fireplace that's there now. An inglenook, forsooth.
The arch is so flat, it must have had a wrought-iron support across beneath it, but that's gone and forgotten.

Builder and building inspector both think there was once an inglenook, then it was made smaller with stone surround, and then possibly a victorian fireplace before being filled in and plastered over.

So, considering that I do not have a chimney stack and the room is quite small and warm normally, I don't intend to replace the stack (lack of funds) so just want to make a feature of it, do I keep the stone surround opening or get an oak beam and put back a larger opening to the size of the large stone hearth in the floor?

The front section of the wall will have to be rebuilt anyway as it is unsafe.

 

[88v8]

That same sequence of infill and later fireplace happened in our C17 cottage and I guess many others. However, we still have the original oak beam so when a PO opened it up in 1972 the original inglenook was easily reinstated, and in one room we also retained the small Victorian hearth slab which sits in the floor in front of the inglenook hearth.

Not so easy for you. The stone surround, assuming you can get the carved bits restored, is part of the house's history so if that matters to you it could be the preferred option and would ensure that the history continues. History can only be destroyed once. In the past, changes were made because of evolving technology - more efficient fireplaces - but now technology and the inexpensive warmth it provides gives you the luxury of choice.
History can only be destroyed once. Did I say that?

Otoh if the surround cannot be restored by that company I flagged up or perhaps one nearer to you, then that link with the past is gone and you could create your own future history with a beam. In that case I would take a couple of good pics of the wall which currently shows the evolution of the fireplace, print them in sepia tone on photo paper and hang them up in the room.

Ivor

 

[1610ness]

So the builders quote came in......

£4920 :shock: :shock: :shock:

That is for 'prop ceiling to support the upstairs wall. Remove old wall. Dig out foundations down to good ground and pour concrete. Rebuild wall out of solid concrete block and use old stone to make...'

I can only assume he meant to finish that with 'make feature of existing fireplace'.

Henceforth, we are getting in the acros, propping up the ceiling, putting in some steel straps above the loose bricks and cobble and then investigating what is behind the loose bricks and cobble. We will then see whether there is a need for the acros as we think that the loose wall is not load bearing as there is a thicker wall behind loose wall (fingers crossed).

Then make a decision on what to do with whole thing.

 

[1610ness]

So the builders quote came in......

£4920 :shock: :shock: :shock:

That is for 'prop ceiling to support the upstairs wall. Remove old wall. Dig out foundations down to good ground and pour concrete. Rebuild wall out of solid concrete block and use old stone to make...'

I can only assume he meant to finish that with 'make feature of existing fireplace'.

Henceforth, we are getting in the acros, propping up the ceiling, putting in some steel straps above the loose bricks and cobble and then investigating what is behind the loose bricks and cobble. We will then see whether there is a need for the acros as we think that the loose wall is not load bearing as there is a thicker wall behind loose wall (fingers crossed).

Then make a decision on what to do with whole thing.

 

[a twig]

For the scope of the work he has quoted for I wouldn't say that is a horrendous price to be honest. Whether or not all that work needs doing though is another matter.

 

[88v8]

Did you get a quote for repairing the fireplace?

If the wall is not loadbearing, that changes things. I would finish opening up the fireplace and get it repaired, then brush off the loose stuff vacuum it to get all the dust out, rebed what's loose, build across the worst of the cracks - do you know what I mean? - point the deeper holes, then plaster with two lime coats, the first with hemp which not only insulates a little but also gives crack-resistance.

Yes, it's a mess, but then so are many old walls that were never intended to be seen naked.

Ivor