Datestone query - updated with pics

[FamilyWiggs]

Anyone help me interpret this?

OK it's not exactly a stone, but it is carved into the doorframe above the door of my (so I'm told) 16thC Welsh farmhouse.

Incidentally, the village is called Llanfynydd, so maybe that is the LL?

What about the symbol in the middle?

The stonemason working on my house has suggested it is Roman numeral "shorthand" for 1600 - ie DLL - but that would be quite a tortuous interpretation I think.

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[Schoolmarm]

Is it carved into stone?


Usually, from my very limited reading about local datestones, the letters are to do with who lived there or who built it.


edited to add; have googled datestones and the letters can mean other things too.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

It's carved into the wood of the frame - and burnished in copper or something similar

 

[Cloudscape]

It seems like someone went to a lot of trouble with these initials. It there any way of knowing how old they are?

The way it is spaced out, I don't see it as a date. I see a man's initial (D) first, a symbol for a union (or a sapling/fertility thing), followed by a woman's initial - the LL.

The initials probably relate to surnames, rather than first names.

In a far grander way, coats of arms were combined when families were joined, to produce a visual statement of the union.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Cloudscape - thanks.

Very interesting - I had assumed that the LL represented Llanfynydd, the village in which I live.

The symbol in the middle - does anyone know for sure what it represents? The "marriage" thing seems plausible, but I'd be interested if anyone could definitively identify it.

(I know "definitive" is a relative term when considering things 500 years old...)

 

[Nemesis]

It really is guesswork - I agree probably initials, I wasn't joking when I said Dai Llewlyn in the other thread - it could be a marriage, it could simply be the initials of the person who had the house built, or extended, or a proud new owner, birth of a child, may not represent aything more than that. It could indeed be meant to represent a date, but I feel that is less likely.

There is no reason to believe that the carving is as old as the house either - often these were added at a later date - as I said, maybe by a new owner, a marriage, an anniversary.

The symbol could simply be a piece of decoration, Tree of Life, Holy Trinity, all manner of things. It could be two joining into one. That's something which some research into symbols, folk art, sampler designs, pottery etc could give some idea.

http://www.uwic.ac.uk/ICRC/issue006/articles/01.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/search2/?searchtype=1&sp_q=Medieval+Symbols

A three pronged spear - is one of the key attributes of Poseidon, the Greco-Roman god of waters, seas and storms, and a symbol of his authority. [...]
Hindus call the trident the trishul - it is associated with Shiva, and is a symbolic weapon against evil. Its three prongs symbolize the three gunas or qualities of nature: creation, preservation and destruction (also desire, action and wisdom). In Tantrism it is a Shamanic wand invested with powers against demons.

In the ancient Middle East the trident denoted lightening, and Buddhists link the trishul with the vajra or thunderbolt, and with the three jewels [...] It also symbolizes right knowledge, right belief and right conduct. The trishul is also the mark on the hood that identifies the sacred serpent."

:

Despite the good-natured uses of the trident in history, because they were used by "pagan" gods, when Christianity came to write the history books it portrayed The Trident as an instrument of evil, just as it demonized foreign gods it turned their tools into symbols of evil. The Christian devil, especially in the middle ages and dark ages, became a combination of elements from all the pagan gods. It gained horns and hoofs along with a trident, and with these the Christians employed it as a tool to scare pagans into Christian church and especially to scare Christians away from reasonable consideration of pagan practices and symbols.

See also:

http://mywap.o2.co.uk/go/sites/mview/drkmntn/15113059;jsessionid=4FE23360CB865EBAB504C2ADC4BB1D8C.cA

I dont think this is a trident though! It also has some similarities to the sign in alchemy for quicklime...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0500283516/vexencrabtree

If it is possible to trace back through records previous owners, it may help put a piece of jigsaw in place, but there again it may not!

One thing which may help date this vaguely is typeface style - which did alter over time.

 

[Cloudscape]

(Posted at the same time as Nemesis :wink: )

The symbol we're seeing could have been stylized by the carver and that could confuse things. It could have a local meaning. Does it occur anywhere else locally?

I did some research into early inn signs, and inn names. They were quite often chosen to demonstrate allegiance to a large land owner, the king, or another bigwig. This made me wonder if "G" or "LL" were beholden to someone who had the trident in their coat of arms.

Extending this, possibly "G" or "LL" were from somewhere else - a place that has the trident in its coat of arms, eg:

Wirral
http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/merseyside.html

Chatham
http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/kent_ob.html

If the datestone was added by hippies who were into Hinduism, the symbol would be Shiva's trident.

If there was any connection to the sea, it would be Neptune/Poseidon's trident. Or fishing, since the central prong has a spear end. The use would then be like a pagan blessing for safety at sea, or successful fishing.

If it was a sign to itinerant workers (and "hobos") it would mean there is work here, or food will be given in exchange for work.

It's based on the earliest runic symbol - a stick with two symmetrical upward-pointing side branches. The sign is related to water, to fire and to thunderstorms (by implication). This could - if you stretch it further - relate to a smithy.

There's clear evidence that the trident relates to the Devil, also, but from medieval times, this usually looks more like a trident, with all three prongs pointing upwards.

If you rotate the symbol through 90 degrees anticlockwise, and mirror it (make a symmetrical six-armed version), it's still fishy, because it would be like the symbol for Pisces. But it would also be like the alchemical symbol for mixing... which leads me back to the idea of a union.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

It's not an early try-out for the HLF logo, is it?