Cutting through a stud wall

[parkview094]

Hello,

One of the joys of an Edwardian property is that there are lots of eaves. We're in the process of creating a new study area on a landing and from my calculations, there was an enormous wasted area under the eaves that would make a great storage cupboard. So, on the weekend, I knocked a hole in the lathe and plaster and gingerly peered inside.

After I'd acclimatized to the arctic windows blowing through the gap I'd created, I found a very large and usable space oddly with a selection of floorboards already conveniently laid. (Not enough floorboards to have ever been used as an actual 'room' though; evidently the builders must have just had some floorboarding going spare when they built the house).

What I wasn't expecting was that the studs supporting the lathe and plaster wall were not spaced very far apart and are somewhat more industrial than I was expecting. The studs themselves are constructed of the same timber as the floor joists and roof rafters which line up such that the studs connect them both. I've attempted to illustrate this:



There doesn't appear to be a base plate of any form, the studs are just nailed to both the rafters and the joists.

Now, given the gap between the stud's isn't very wide, I'd like to cut through 2 of them to create a doorway. How do I know whether I can do this without the house falling down? I presume I'll need to construct a custom door frame out of 2x4, but will that be man enough? It's such a seemingly small job, is this really one for a structural engineer or am I just worrying needlessly?

 

[plasticpigeon]

They may well be there to stop the ceiling below from sagging.

 

[malcolm]

I'm guessing there is a purlin above the posts. I was in a similar position and removed one post to install a door for eaves access. My reasoning was while the purlin in the attic was supported by regular posts, the purlin in the roof next to it had a 5m span with no posts to help it along. A structural idiot might suggest you double up the posts either side of the one you remove, but I doubt that would be necessary if only one post is removed. Why do you need to remove two?

It is well worth lining the space otherwise stuff you put up there will get very dusty.

 

[parkview094]

@Plasticpigeon - That was my best guess as to why they were there. I can't think of any sensible way to prevent 'sag', although if I board over the floor joists and fix with lots of screws, I guess that would do a reasonable job?

@Malcolm - I'm not sure about the presence of Purlins. Will take a look when I get home this evening. The roof is close-boarded, so I'm guessing there wouldn't be? Also - that's a very neat lining job you've completed there. Do I need to worry about breathability? (is that a word? ) I was thinking just about using mdf/plywood sheeting over the rafters to reduce dust, but to keep the air flow...

 

[malcolm]

My personal rule for insulation is it is OK to use an impermeable covering like the celotex in the photo so long as there is a ventilated air gap behind on the cold side. I have eaves vents blowing a good wind on the cold side. The tape in the photo is a more marginal decision - my other rule is never stick anything impermeable to anything I don't want to rot away, though I've got building regs on the case here so some things might need to be corrected after they have gone away so that the building doesn't fall down.

 

[TheRoost]

What depth are the floor joists approximately, are they spaced at 12 or 16" centres? and what is the span of the joists? it's possible that it's over engineered, but always wise to compensate properly for anything you remove.

In our loft we have quite feeble joists, they are supported by hangers which are nailed to the purlins. These 'hangers' were originally pieces of scrap architrave or skirting, some of which had broken under tension, you definitely noticed the difference standing on a joist that had lost its hanger! I have replaced them with thicker sections of timber, they are definitely serving a purpose.

 

[88v8]

I made a space in our eaves, in the previous house.
The eaves were already in use ab initio. PO who built the house had made sets of deep fitted drawers built into the eaves, and a couple of cupboards and some shelves. I just used a space that he had left blank, as it were.

It became our computer command centre. I made a jib door and papered it so it was pretty much invisible.

As to support, we had a collar roof so the stud wall was structural.
I removed one stud.
So as to minimise deflection, I made the opening at one end of the external wall where the purlin was supported, rather than in the middle of the purlin.
I put a 4x2" (I think it was) across the top to spread the load. If the floor joists hadn't been so massive - 9x3" - I could have inlaid a piece of angle iron to spread the load there.
But as I say, my wall was structural, whereas I would think that yours isn't.
I lined it under the eaves, or rather I lined it between the eaves as I wanted to see the ceiling joists, with hardboard and a bit of loft insulation. The stud wall I lined against dust but did not insulate as I didn't want the computer room to get too cold.
The room faced west and as it was effectively in the roof it got hot so I made a couple of openable air vents to the outside.

If you have a conventional roof I think you'll be fine to cut the stud and put a 4x2" across the top.

Ivor

Here's the westerly eaves slope with an original cupboard



Here are some drawers and shelves in the adjacent bedroom in the same west slope. The drawers were about 30" deep.



And here's my eaves computer cupb with the jib door open. Unfortunately don't seem to have a pic with it shut, but it had a skirting and was papered so it looked like the wall. Just above the 250 GTO you can see the air vent with its Brighton fastener.

 

[parkview094]

Thanks for the pictures 88v8 - very interesting.
There's disagreement in the normally harmonious Birchmead household however! Would be interested in your opinions.
My project cupboard has stalled as Mrs Parkview has suggested that rather than making a cupboard under the eves, the entire stud wall should be removed and the area opened up onto the landing.

Hopefully this will provide some context:



We have a half landing area which I was intending to use as a study. You can see the desk placed in what is effectively a dormer offering restricted head height of around 1.75m. That actually works well for a desk as the ceiling rises rapidly offering full head height where the desk chair would be. The eves area in question is to the left of the desk where I've knocked the hole in the wall. My vision was to house all the books, the printer and the usual unsightly study paraphernalia behind a closed door.

Mrs P has, however, eyed up the space through the hole..



..and suggested that it would be much better utilised to enlarge the overall landing area to make a bigger study. Her argument is that the larger floor area would make the space feel more spacious and less like a desk on a half landing.

A challenge with removing the wall is the beam that you can just see to the left of the photo above the handrail. We can cut through it and support it to provide a door around 1.7m tall. If we were to remove the wall completely, it could realistically only be opened up as high as the ceiling above the desk (1.75m). The space would then drop away with the eves resulting in what I fear may feel like an odd space you can't really 'walk' into.

Comments, suggestions and opinions would be greatly appreciated - especially if they agree with my viewpoint :lol:

 

[mims&pip]

Hi Parkview,

Usually I would be in the 'keep it as close to the original as possible' camp, but in this instance - having done something similar at a previous house - I'm afraid I have to side with Mrs Parkview :roll:

Our house was rather like Ivor's (although the bones were much, much older) as the guy that (re)built it in the 1930s had made use of every inch of space for storage. We had a long, narrow (24' x 13' iirc) bedroom in the eaves, at one end of which there were two walk-in wardrobes that had both the lovely 1930s doors and later, horrid ones - good useful storage, but as there was no upstairs bathroom (there were two on the ground floor), it made better sense to us to utilise the cupboard space as an ensuite bathroom. Our first idea was to open up the largest cupboard and make a small shower room, but not being ones to do things by halves we soon realised this would a) look a bit odd, leaving us with a strange shaped bedroom and b) having come from a much larger house with 12' x 12' master bathroom with claw foot bath, I wanted somewhere a little more luxurious! I'll add a pic or two tomorrow when I'm on the Mac :wink:

For your own home I think the spaciousness that will be achieved by opening up the eaves cupboard and incorporating it into the landing will be worth its weight in gold and imho - whilst I see the merits in keeping the office clutter hidden out of sight - you will have a much more pleasant workspace......

Mims x

 

[plasticpigeon]

Parkview, you showed a picture of your new house. It looked very large to me, why are you putting a desk in the landing?

 

[mims&pip]

Before, during and after pics of our eaves opening project at our last-but-one house as promised (spread across two posts)........

Apologies for first pic - it's from soon after moving in, so a bit of a mess, lol!

Mims x

 

[mims&pip]

The rest.......



Mims x

ps Our current office space is also on a landing, PP - although in our case at 13' x 12' with doors separating it from the other areas, it's more like a proper room - must be the thing to do, lol!