Curtilage Listed and Permitted Development rights

[RedTomato]

I'm getting nowhere with my local council in trying to understand permissions required for solar panels on my shed roof; they seem to have packed up for covid and never returned.

Generally, the principle is that if you mess about with a listed building including its grounds, you need LBC. However, I'm now under the impression that the only things that count as "curtilage listed" are structures that existed pre-1948; on this basis, am I right in thinking that, for example, installing (and subsequently altering) a new stand-alone structure would typically require only planning permission and not LBC?

Back to my problem - installing solar panels on my shed roof.
The shed is a modern timber building on a hard standing (very much post 1948 - i.e. c.2001) about 10m away from the house, and away from any historic structures.
Most listed properties also falls into conservation areas; however, I cannot find any reference to Article 4 directions for this conservation area, which would typically remove permitted development rights.
All in all, is it possible to assume that no permissions are required and I can JFDI my solar panels?

 

[a twig]

If it really is a shed JFDI, if the council do object it won’t be too arduous to take them down again.

 

[Cubist]

A while back I found myself associated with a disparate group of people that had banded together to resist a holiday homes development proposed for nearby. The members of this team just happened to include the CO's of two neighbouring planning authorities with whom, naturally, I got into conversation about my home. This chat inevitably lead to some discussion of my plans for the place and what approvals/permissions I may need and during this a friendly dispute arose between those two gents concerning what permissions I would need based on their respective understandings of the term 'curtilage' as it related to my home.

Talking to a solicitor friend some time later I asked her which of those two gents opinions could possibly be right. After verifying that neither CO represented my 'home local authority' she replied - "Neither and both"!

Beware RedTomato - its always wisest to hope for the best but plan for the worst.

 

[LadyArowana]

Possibly it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Then if retrospective permission is denied you could appeal. And on a practical level, how would anyone even know?

 

[Cubist]

In one of my little debates with the local CO he was adamant that anything I proposed that may affect the appearance of this old place, including double glazing, was highly unilkely to be permitted - even after I pointed out that the only place the house can be seen from was/is the ridge of the hillside opposite which is circa 400 metres away. My postulation that any observer so placed would need some serious binoculars fell on deaf ears.

 

[AndrewWorcs]

I'm thinking of doing exactly the same thing. I would request listed building permission, it's easy and may save a problem if ever you sell the house. I wanted to replace a crap 1970s outside door with a tasteful plain oak one, and had no problem. In the present crisis they will need a good reason for refusing solar panels and you can have the pleasure of saying: "Don't you know that there is a war on?". The issue of curtilage is determined at the date of listing, it's anything on the land of the building that's listed. If part of the land is sold after listing it's still in the curtilage, so in our case the farmhouse was listed in 1984 or so. The barns were sold off later and converted, but the owners still need listed building permission for changes, even though their properties are not listed. I don't think that the age of the shed is relevant, see details of the legality of your shed here: https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/outbuildings/planning-permission The other thing I found is that you need to be sure that the shed roof will take the weight of the panels, mine was a bit rotten!

 

[MatthewC]

Most listed properties also falls into conservation areas; however, I cannot find any reference to Article 4 directions for this conservation area, which would typically remove permitted development rights.

Article 4 directions are the specific ones which allows them to justify the right to direct even what colours you can paint your house or front door (think of Portmeirion, for example) or the type of fence at the front. It's all about retaining local character, so for most CAs there is no Article 4 (unless your council is VERY controlling).

My District Council has published small guide leaflets for both Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas, and I think all councils should have done this. They employ Conservation Officers who, by definition, have a wide choice of what is allowable in "their" area; this used to annoy me but I can see the point, as otherwise there would be lots of impossible and inapplicable silly rules to comply with - which would you rather have? Having said that, their personal preferences and actions can annoy: I had a double sash window (two as one structure, side by side) made for the kitchen and the CO spoke to the company querying why the central piece of wood between the two windows was "so wide", clearly not understanding the construction of sash windows. The same CO once wrote that "I don't like cement coping" re one of my applications in which I did not mention cement coping but stone coping!

One rule that they do not often mention is that "Like for Like" Repairs do NOT require any permission, which is most lovely to raise when they say you cannot do something! I made a point of not even mentioning such work to them, reckoning that I could always justify it, and I think that's the point: if something in your place looks new (like a solar panel, or even just a new brick dog house), you clearly cannot justify it later so I reckon it needs all the permissions. If, OTOH, whether you repair an old wall or build a new one which looks old, who can tell the difference? It was a like for like repair!