Curtain fixings, and how old is this porch?

[JoceAndChris]

I'm about to put curtains above this very draughty door. I intend to put a straight brass pole above the architrave and have the two curtans hanging either side of these double doors. But just before I do, any idea what the little white painted downwards-facing hooks at the top might be for? Are they some kind of curtain fixings?

And, also, anyone hazard a guess at the age of it? The glass panes are the wobbly kind.

 

[Jon Maine]

Well those I do believe would have been to locate a solid wooden panel over the inside of the glass as a shutter to increase security. I suspect there will be either visible or under the paint some markings left from whatever secured the bottom of them.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Jon, I don't quite get how the mechanism of this would work but then I'm just a girl so can't be expected to.

As long as I'm not upsetting any ghost who is expecting me to re-erect curtains with top and bottom rod pockets (look at this link if new terminology http://www.blindsanddrapery.com/window-treatments/discount-draperies-panels/100.cfm) I'll go ahead with my plan.

 

[Nigel Watts]

Joce

Great looking doors. I agree about the brackets. Perhaps the removeable panels just covered the glazed parts.

The four-centred arch design suggests to me early gothic revival - the high Victorian Goths would have found this too frivolous - somewhere between 1800 and 1840 perhaps?

Nigel

 

[Penners]

I don't quite get how the mechanism of this would work but then I'm just a girl so can't be expected to

Quite so, dear lady. So don't you go worrying your pretty little head about it.

What's the age of the house, Joce? Is it Georgian? I could believe that the doors are original to the property - particularly as their shape would require very careful (and fairly unusual) incorporation into the construction of the wall. Is there any sign of the masonry around them having been modified at any point?

 

[JoceAndChris]

So don't you go worrying your pretty little head about it.

Always one of my favourite phrases!

Thanks very much or the help regarding the date, I also think they may be original to the property, which may be from 1780ish to 1830 ish. There is no sign of tampering with the brickwork. There's an arch on the other side of it, and every door here has an arch above it.

This picture was taken in 1982 and shows a matching set of outer windows. (I'm not entirely sure how the original outer doors would have been constructed) To me, the windows look so right with that castly bit. I can't believe the previous owner dismantled those windows and doors -why?

Anyway I have several boxes of intact diamond shaped panes in the workshop.This picture was taken this morning by my chickens who helped me to clean up the old glass (a bluey hue to it - does that date it at all?). We all think we need to set my dad off remaking the doors with this glass as they were. Any strong agreement or disagreement on this?

 

[Moo]

This picture was taken this morning by my chickens

I'm trying to think of something really witty to write, but words fail me.

 

[JoceAndChris]

That's OK Moo, I'm sure they'll take it as a great compliment that you've been struck dumb!

But I am interested in what is best for the exterior windows in this case, whether one should accept that the past is gone, even though the look of the building has been drastically altered by the previous owner's unsensitive change, or whether this is a case for restoration.

 

[Nigel Watts]

I dont think I've seen anything quite like this before, so I'm not sure I know what I would do if I were in your shoes. Before making any snap decision it might be worth trying to do some more research. Are there any other buildings in the neighbourhood with similar detailing for example? I have flicked through my books on Repton and Nash who built many early 19th C cottage ornes, often in gothic style, but cant see anything of obvious help.

Its not impossible that this might originally have been an open porch, or at least one with no doors, or a later addition to the building. Cottage ornes often had verandahs - could this have been one?

What is also a little puzzling is the relative slenderness of the door jambs given the width of the opening and the apparent mass of the parapet above. What exactly is holding it all up - a wooden beam? If it was, then rot may have taken hold and the roof of the porch may have had to be extensively mended. The castellated parapet may have been taken down at this stage and considered too expensive/difficult to replace.

Sorry. Lots more questions and no answers!

 

[Nigel Watts]

I'll get off the fence now. Pevsner is not always right but he's usually pretty reliable. "...single-storey late Georgian gamekeeper's cottage .... with a deep polygonal bay to the S and a castellated porch to the N". (You may already have told us this, but I have not been a very consistent reader of the forum over the years) Porches of the period typically did not have outer doors. If the glazing details in the old photo are the same as the surviving inner ones, which they seem to be, it would certainly be appropriate to reinstate them, to create a glazed porch. The outer doors may or may not be original, but if you are keeping them, which would seem sensible, the glazing should clearly match. I hope this helps.

 

[Penners]

Very interesting observations above. To me, the only thing that might muster against the doors being original to the house is the thickness of the glazing bars. The Georgians were masterly at achieving very light, fine glazing bars, whereas these are rather more substantial.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Nigel, you're wonderful, thankyou. (of course I'm happy to hear endorsement of my wishes but I'm interested in the counter argument too if anyone cares to propound it )

I love the notion of you flicking through your Repton, Nash, and Pevsner to see what you can find, that's just so helpful. I have tried to interest various local people in my building, including the Conservation Officer (it isn't listed), but to no avail. The local, published historian identified it as a late Victorian building which rather lost him my respect as any numpty can see it ain't that. My research has pretty much drawn a blank, apart from knowing for certain that a farming family were renting it from the Ryders from 1840 onwards, and this same family bought it at the turn of the last century when the estate was broken up. I've heard various conjectures of its original purpose, from farmhouse (which seems very unlikely to me), to hunting lodge (it only had 3 bedrooms though), to cottage orne, to gamekeeper's cottage. There are no other buildings like this one in this area. The fact that you have found details of an almost identical gamekeeper's cottage (my polygonal bay at the front is sunset facing, and the castellated porch sees the dawn) is extremely illuminating, can you tell me where this building is? I want to see it!

I don't think the current outer doors are original, they feel much flimsier and newer than those inner doors, as you will see in the photograph.

I can see that I don't have enough old panes to cover windows and doors, which perhaps indicates that it was still an open porch in 1982. Certainly the cottage was worked on very little until the 1980s. Render was applied but virtually nothing was done to the interior. The people who lived here between 1950- 1982 did absolutely nothing: there wasn't even electricity and the squalor that the previous owner inherited (and photographed, thank god - and I've got those photos) was just extraordinary for 1982. This extreme of apathy and poverty (possibly illness too) has meant that much of the cottage is as it was in 1790 or whenever it was built.

To understand the porch and its doors better I could telephone the previous owner. He was a metalworker, not a carpenter, which perhaps explains his keenness to make all those leaded panes, I know he did the work himself, as well as the lead roof which is behind the castellation.

This roof a verandah? I'd love to think so, and certainly we've talked about this - the view is glorious. But, short of climbing out of the dormer window in the attic bedroom and sliding down the roof slates with carrier bags under our bottoms I can't see how it would be done!

Penners - I know what you mean about the glazing bars, but is it not possible that in Lincs the woodwork could have become a bit more rustic and comely, to match the girls?!

 

[JoceAndChris]

What is also a little puzzling is the relative slenderness of the door jambs given the width of the opening and the apparent mass of the parapet above. What exactly is holding it all up - a wooden beam? If it was, then rot may have taken hold and the roof of the porch may have had to be extensively mended. The castellated parapet may have been taken down at this stage and considered too expensive/difficult to replace.

:? Are bricks holding it up? And a wooden lintel above the windows? Rot did take hold, the roof was replaced, and the previous owner took down the castly bit carefully to do this then put it back.

I haven't shown a photo of the view of it from the front as it is today -this is not a great pic but gives you some idea.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

some kind soul has digitised the whole of John Buonarotti Papworth's Rural Residences here
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...resnum=1&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Googling for it will produce the result if the link doesn't work. There is much in that pattern book (and John Claudius Loudon's similar works) that smacks of Chateau Joce.

I'm not convinced about the battlements etc.

 

[JoceAndChris]

That's a really fascinating read Gareth, I'll go through it all later.

I'm not convinced about the battlements etc.

Could you say more? When you have a chance?

Do you mean that you think it's fakery, that the previous owner lied to me and stuck on those battlements himself, or that it would be wrong to reinstate the wooden glazed windows at the front, or all of those things? :?

I'd sooner know what I'm dealing with here than go off on a fool's errand.

 

[Penners]

is it not possible that in Lincs the woodwork could have become a bit more rustic and comely, to match the girls?!

Of course that's entirely possible. I like a bit of rustic and comely myself - it can withstand more enthusiastic treatment, although it tends not to give way so easily. :wink:

 

[Nigel Watts]

Joce

There are no other buildings like this one in this area. The fact that you have found details of an almost identical gamekeeper's cottage (my polygonal bay at the front is sunset facing, and the castellated porch sees the dawn) is extremely illuminating, can you tell me where this building is? I want to see it!

The Pevsner entry reads "E of the cemetery, overlooking the town. A modest single-storey late Georgian gamekeeper's cottage on the ******** estate, with a deep polygonal bay to the S and a castellated porch to the N"

The name of the property is given as {name of the estate} Lodge, which Google Maps shows to be an old people's home bearing no resemblance to the description, presumably because the name has been changed, or the described building demolished. The name of the estate correlates with your location.

The book was first published in 1964. Mine is a second edition "extensively revised" in 1989, reprinted with correction in 1995.

No illustration.

(I spared you the "modest" first time round, but in the interests of scholarship have given it warts and all!)

 

[JoceAndChris]

Good Lord. Who is this person who wandered around writing down details of everyone's house? :shock: :shock: :shock:

But thankyou so so much for sharing this!

So that means the castly bit could not have been stuck on by Richard. He withheld things from me, but I can't believe he deliberately lied - we were very frank with one another, and I believe I have mentioned before that we became friends before purchasing the house, we stayed here and socialised with them a lot.

Unless when your book got revised they had been all over writing down how the houses looked in the 80s?

Do you mean my house was called Beacon Lodge? This is what the taxi drivers call it, it's always bewildered me.

Don't worry about the modest bit, it might have been modest to your chappy but it ain't to me!

He was wrong about the bungalow bit though, there's definitely 3 storeys here.

 

[Tom]

Edited

 

[JoceAndChris]

A plague of detectives!!! :lol:

Yes, Chris wrote that, his style is briefer, as you so astutely pointed out. :lol: