crack stitching for external wall/bay window

[00rebsta]

Hi all,
On our 1930s house there are old cracks to the render above the bay window and above the front door. Also cracking to the bay window brickwork itself. This is suspected to be because of sagging wooden lintels. I’ve not noticed it getting worse.
Have been quoted just under 3k to have all the areas crack stitched as recommended by an SE. This includes helibeam for over the front door. I assume this is instead of replacing the wooden lintel? Does this sound about right? Will it reinforce the wall and bay enough and prevent any future movement?
My issue is, all of this (bar the bay window brickwork) is under horrible render. I’m worried about the state of the brickwork below as the render has been cracked for some time. As in could it be worse than I’m expecting and can’t just be stitched. The render and plaster (in the upstairs bedroom ) is so old you can see a bit of daylight under the bedroom windowsill. Once the wall is repaired would it need to be rendered immediately following that?Just trying to find quotes for that now really. The window and their frames all need replacing too. Starting to feel like this house needs totally rebuilding
We had the bay window repointed ages ago by another builder, (before we knew it required stitching) who basically said a mesh could just be put under when they re render? Never mentioned stitching nocracks?
Just wondered if anyone had any experience with such work? I’ve heard you can diy crack stitching,m but I’m kind of not wanting to risk it when it’s stuctural type stuff.
Thanks

 

[Cubist]

Hi There,
Wooden lintels are, to my mind, an excellent example of 'in-built obsolescence' and are a frequent cause of the problems you are experiencing. Sadly the only long term solution is to replace them with new lintels. Anything else can only be regarded as a short term fix as continued decay of the lintel will induce further failures in the supported brickwork an any render coating applied to them.

Does the builders quote you have cover the replacement of the lintels? If so, I'm a trifle puzzled by the need for stitching as the supported brickwork above should be made good after the new lintel is installed.

 

[Feltwell]

I think you're asking the impossible on an internet forum, even if you post pictures - it needs a site visit to give a proper opinion. You've done the right thing in getting a SE involved, why not go back to them with the quote for an opinion?

From what you post I'd definitely query the lintel replacement - but whilst I'm familiar with helifix, I've not heard of helibeam - a quick Google suggests that it's sold as an alternative to lintel replacement, so maybe it is right to do the job.

Failing render can hide a multitude of sins, but not necessarily. The only way to tell is take it off, which is an easy enough job.

 

[stuart45]

Helibeam systems do work. It's the same principle as what I've done on site years ago, putting reinforcement in the bed joints of 3 courses of brickwork over a timber window, when a lintel wasn't being used.
I've known people DIY them as well, it's not that difficult a job.
The downside is that you're still left with a rotten lintel in place.

 

[00rebsta]

Yeah the SE I used recommended to check and replace the lintels as needed (he never gave an estimation for it) but then I’ve gone to a recommended structural specialist and they’ve not quoted for replacement as far as I can see. They’ve quoted to use the helifix system for it all. I suppose maybe they can’t tell if the lintels deffo needs replacing until the renders removed.
I’ll question it before I go ahead. I need to find quotes for re rendering after aswell yet anyway. I just want to make sure I’m prepared for any potential disasters when it comes off. Feels slightly scary

 

[stuart45]

With very large timber beams, it's sometimes more cost effective to just repair the bearing ends.

 

[paulc]

Similar aged three bed bay fronted semi here. A few comments about the construction which is pretty common around these parts..
The bay window is ground floor only. The upper floor and wall is supported by three lengths of 8x2 timbers - If these were to fail, I'd look at installing a steel lintel.
Over the front door & adjoining window, there is a massive cast concrete lintel on the inner leaf of brickwork. The door/window frame supported the outer leaf which consists of a decorative soldier course. With some houses, these bricks are tied to the inner lintel, but mine were not.. Replaced the door & window last year, and had to remove the soldier course in order to insert a lintel - Failure to do this could have resulted in the brickwork dropping and cracks appearing. Quite a few houses in the neighbourhood have had uPVC windows/doors slapped in and are now showing signs of sagging brickwork.
The upper half of my house is/was rough cast render with quite a few cracks in it along with blown patches. The top layer appeared to be a lime mix to hold the stones in place over a hard cement base coat. Much of this top layer fell off when attacked with a 3" scraper and air hammer/chisel. The base layer was surprisingly solid with only a couple of very small blown areas. Although there were a few hairline cracks in this layer, they appeared to be shrinkage cracks as most of them had traces of the lime render in them. Those that didn't, were not aligned with any of the cracks in the outer layer (bar one) - This latter crack was a result of an extension built by Bodgit & Scarper Builders back in the 1970s. Improper support when installing a lintel had resulted in movement of the upper wall which was papered over and ignored until recently. There hasn't been any evidence of movement for as long as I can remember. The biggest problem has been ingress of water during extreme weather. I recently used Helifix to stitch the crack both internally and externally before rendering & plastering - Early days, but it appears to have fixed the water leak.
Over the bay, the tiles were originally sealed against the wall with a big fillet of mortar. Suffice to say, over the last ~90 years, cracks have appeared and possibly allowed water through. Whilst dealing with the render, took the opportunity to install some lead flashing - 6" strip chased in to a mortar joint with just 3" over the tiles so that it doesn't look out of place..

Also had gaps around some of the windows here. The worst being in bedrooms where there was a 1"+ gap above each frame and the timber lintel. The fitters (Debbage & Tubby back in 1976) were relying on the timber trim around the inner reveals to seal the gap and stop any draughts. Not a [redacted] chance of that, and to cap it all, they knock on my door trying to sell replacement windows.. New windows have now been installed (not by D&T) under supervision and properly sealed all the way round. With the windows in place, the exterior has been re-rendered which has added to the sealing around the frames. Am now in the process of insulating the walls internally and killing the last few cold draughts.

A very long winded way of saying the cracks in your render may just be superficial and only affect the top layer. If you are stitching cracks and replacing windows, get that work done before tackling the render - If you have rough cast or pebbledash, getting a decent match when patching is difficult at best. You may be better off removing the top layer and rerendering.

Edit: photo of the leadwork on the bay..

 

[Cubist]

The reference to Heilbeam piqued my curiosity so did a little research. Ostensibly it uses the same technology and materials to insert a couple of lengths of rebar 2-3 brick courses apart and covering the full span which when bonded in place form a continuous brick - for want of a better term - lintel.

Logically I can see how it would work and and that it would be a much less expensive and invasive approach but I cannot find any info regarding potential failings of the bonding agents used.

 

[stuart45]

It's not always just about the brickwork with a failing timber beam. They can be taking floor loads as well.

 

[00rebsta]

Yeah I suppose I just want to ensure that what is required is done and done properly. I worry the quote they’ve given me doesn’t cover some of the potential other stuff that will be uncovered like repairing floors. I suspect with the unevenness of the floors it will all be linked if it is the lintel. The last thing I want is to complete a job and then find that oh actually something else should have been done. I suppose if the lintels are ok there’s still a chance it’s foundation issues causing problems cause that’s common with bays aswell isn’t it so therein lies another potential.

I’m gunna have to try inspect the beam I suppose. What the best way to check it. Could I maybe take some tiles off the bay roof to see or take up some floor in the bedroom? It’s a ground floor bay only. I would ask a general builder but they haven’t been keen to say much when I’ve mentioned it before. I think there’s too many unknowns for them. I suppose to them it’s like why take on this job if you can just take on more straightforward, clearer, jobs like building an extension or whatever.

 

[paulc]

I’m gunna have to try inspect the beam I suppose. What the best way to check it. Could I maybe take some tiles off the bay roof to see or take up some floor in the bedroom? It’s a ground floor bay only. I would ask a general builder but they haven’t been keen to say much when I’ve mentioned it before. I think there’s too many unknowns for them.

The ceiling in my lounge has a step down where the bay is. The timbers (lintel) is hidden behind the plaster, so next to impossible to examine without some degree of destruction. To get to it from under the tiles would involve removing a lot of the tiles. The ones on the hips have quite a bit of cement underneath holding the blighters in place, so not a simple job to remove. Even then, you'd only get to see just one of the three lumps of timber.
Drilling a few discrete holes through the plaster internally, and mortar joints externally would allow for the insertion of a small camera - If you look on ebay & amazon, you'll find a number of borescope USB cameras that will fit through a 6mm hole for less than a tenner. The use of one might indicate if your lintel is failing and provide clues as to the reason. From there, you can come to an informed choice as to a suitable repair.
And as stuart45 points out, the lintel could well be supporting the floor joists upstairs (mine certainly does), in which case, Helibeam is not going to help much.

 

[00rebsta]

Similar aged three bed bay fronted semi here. A few comments about the construction which is pretty common around these parts..
The bay window is ground floor only. The upper floor and wall is supported by three lengths of 8x2 timbers - If these were to fail, I'd look at installing a steel lintel.
Over the front door & adjoining window, there is a massive cast concrete lintel on the inner leaf of brickwork. The door/window frame supported the outer leaf which consists of a decorative soldier course. With some houses, these bricks are tied to the inner lintel, but mine were not.. Replaced the door & window last year, and had to remove the soldier course in order to insert a lintel - Failure to do this could have resulted in the brickwork dropping and cracks appearing. Quite a few houses in the neighbourhood have had uPVC windows/doors slapped in and are now showing signs of sagging brickwork.
The upper half of my house is/was rough cast render with quite a few cracks in it along with blown patches. The top layer appeared to be a lime mix to hold the stones in place over a hard cement base coat. Much of this top layer fell off when attacked with a 3" scraper and air hammer/chisel. The base layer was surprisingly solid with only a couple of very small blown areas. Although there were a few hairline cracks in this layer, they appeared to be shrinkage cracks as most of them had traces of the lime render in them. Those that didn't, were not aligned with any of the cracks in the outer layer (bar one) - This latter crack was a result of an extension built by Bodgit & Scarper Builders back in the 1970s. Improper support when installing a lintel had resulted in movement of the upper wall which was papered over and ignored until recently. There hasn't been any evidence of movement for as long as I can remember. The biggest problem has been ingress of water during extreme weather. I recently used Helifix to stitch the crack both internally and externally before rendering & plastering - Early days, but it appears to have fixed the water leak.
Over the bay, the tiles were originally sealed against the wall with a big fillet of mortar. Suffice to say, over the last ~90 years, cracks have appeared and possibly allowed water through. Whilst dealing with the render, took the opportunity to install some lead flashing - 6" strip chased in to a mortar joint with just 3" over the tiles so that it doesn't look out of place..

Also had gaps around some of the windows here. The worst being in bedrooms where there was a 1"+ gap above each frame and the timber lintel. The fitters (Debbage & Tubby back in 1976) were relying on the timber trim around the inner reveals to seal the gap and stop any draughts. Not a [redacted] chance of that, and to cap it all, they knock on my door trying to sell replacement windows.. New windows have now been installed (not by D&T) under supervision and properly sealed all the way round. With the windows in place, the exterior has been re-rendered which has added to the sealing around the frames. Am now in the process of insulating the walls internally and killing the last few cold draughts.

A very long winded way of saying the cracks in your render may just be superficial and only affect the top layer. If you are stitching cracks and replacing windows, get that work done before tackling the render - If you have rough cast or pebbledash, getting a decent match when patching is difficult at best. You may be better off removing the top layer and rerendering.

Edit: photo of the leadwork on the bay..
View attachment 10251

Thanks for this. Yeah this house has deffo had bodger and badger builders in in the distant past too which hasn’t helped matters either. Found a few corkers have to say. So I wonder if it’s a result one of those bodges too.
Yeah it’s the same with windows and houses here. Why are they even allowed to sell uvpc windows to people with old houses anyway when these houses were built with timber frames serving a more supportive function. I find it baffling really. We did have a whole new front door with frame and it hasn’t fallen down or cracked further so it must be doing something. The SE did say ‘well often with these things there are several pieces of timber nailed together’ and in the report stated that ‘there is no evidence to suggest the lintels are failing to provide support’. But still recommends checking/replacement when re rendering due to the cracks. So I can’t help but wonder sometimes. How much of it is actually needed and how much is arse covering.
That’s why I’m thinking I shouldn’t just jump in and start until the floors looked at aswell. It all needs doing at the same time really. I need a proper plan to get an idea of the cost of the lot.

 

[Cubist]

If they're an uneven floor that slopes toward the lintels location it's almost certain that it's failing. A further clue would be a gap below the bottom edge of the skirting which would suggest that the flooring has sunk with any joists that were/are supported by the lintel.

 

[00rebsta]

If they're an uneven floor that slopes toward the lintels location it's almost certain that it's failing. A further clue would be a gap below the bottom edge of the skirting which would suggest that the flooring has sunk with any joists that were/are supported by the

Yeah the bedroom floors do sag in the middle a bit. It’s barely been mentioned by the SEs I’ve had check the house. Which is annoying. It wasn’t mentioned on pre purchase structural survey. House was empty when we bought it and it wasn’t noticeable. Only noticed it once we moved in. I don’t want to leave the work much longer. It’s just tricky trying to get tradesmen to look at doing it all. Think it’s a pretty common problem in general. Trying to get builders in.

 

[00rebsta]

The ceiling in my lounge has a step down where the bay is. The timbers (lintel) is hidden behind the plaster, so next to impossible to examine without some degree of destruction. To get to it from under the tiles would involve removing a lot of the tiles. The ones on the hips have quite a bit of cement underneath holding the blighters in place, so not a simple job to remove. Even then, you'd only get to see just one of the three lumps of timber.
Drilling a few discrete holes through the plaster internally, and mortar joints externally would allow for the insertion of a small camera - If you look on ebay & amazon, you'll find a number of borescope USB cameras that will fit through a 6mm hole for less than a tenner. The use of one might indicate if your lintel is failing and provide clues as to the reason. From there, you can come to an informed choice as to a suitable repair.
And as stuart45 points out, the lintel could well be supporting the floor joists upstairs (mine certainly does), in which case, Helibeam is not going to help much.

Oo thanks for this too! Ill check out buying a camera. The plaster is terrible in places so I’m hoping it won’t be too difficult to try and create a hole to look. I know replacing a huge beam will be much much dearer but I guess if it’s the long term option and means sorting the floors out too it’s going to have to be done. how do the joists connect to the beam? Are the joist ends just kind of embedded within it? I can’t remember which way they run. They run opposite direction to floorboards don’t they? So if that’s the case I’m pretty sure they do run into the beam.
How do I go about finding a builder willing to take this on?
Or do I go back to the guy who gave me a quote and ask for a proper site visit by them/quote for replacement of beam floor repair etc hmm. They only quoted from photos you see. Not sure why but eh oh that’s what they asked for.
It’s times like these I wish I had a pal who was one. I mean I have a builder coming to do other work but when I asked about the front/cracks/lintels on their site visit I got little response. Another said they didn’t do crack stitching. That’s why I just tried a specialist and finally sort of got a quote. It’s a nightmare. No one says how hard it is getting workers and then equally you’re trying not to be conned/robbed by cowboys at the same time. I wish there was more help for owners of old buildings. A pub in our town is closing because those who run the pub say the state of the building is too bad and the owner won’t repair it right now. Id guess because of cost. I kid you not there was a tree growing out it’s roof/chimney until not long ago. Just bonkers absolutely bonkers

 

[Cubist]

how do the joists connect to the beam? Are the joist ends just kind of embedded within it?

Depends on a number of factors depending on age and build quality of the house. Most likely and common is that the joists are laid edge on directly on top of and at right angles to the lintels/beams and side nailed into the timber below with noggins between the joists to add structural strength. In earlier houses the joists and timbers may have been morticed and tenoned and in more modern houses joist hangers may have been employed.

 

[paulc]

The plaster is terrible in places so I’m hoping it won’t be too difficult to try and create a hole to look. I know replacing a huge beam will be much much dearer but I guess if it’s the long term option and means sorting the floors out too it’s going to have to be done. how do the joists connect to the beam?

I had a crack in the plaster right in the middle of the bay. One side had dropped ever so slightly.. Got a step ladder out and gave the bit of plaster a prod to see if it would move with the intention of fixing it back in place with a screw or two. That prod was enough to bring a big chunk down. Turns out they had used a precast cement "corner" spanning the full widt of the bay. On removing some of the artex on the rest of the ceiling, more plaster was ending up on the floor. Ended up saying f....kit and took the whole ceiling down. Didn't have any cornice or other period decorative features to conserve, so losing the ceiling was no great loss. Gave me a chance to examine the state of the timber lintel and insulate the bay roof.

The floor joists run from front to back and rest on top of the lintel. Can't say if there are any nails to secure the two together.

 

[00rebsta]

I had a crack in the plaster right in the middle of the bay. One side had dropped ever so slightly.. Got a step ladder out and gave the bit of plaster a prod to see if it would move with the intention of fixing it back in place with a screw or two. That prod was enough to bring a big chunk down. Turns out they had used a precast cement "corner" spanning the full widt of the bay. On removing some of the artex on the rest of the ceiling, more plaster was ending up on the floor. Ended up saying f....kit and took the whole ceiling down. Didn't have any cornice or other period decorative features to conserve, so losing the ceiling was no great loss. Gave me a chance to examine the state of the timber lintel and insulate the bay roof.

The floor joists run from front to back and rest on top of the lintel. Can't say if there are any nails to secure the two together.

Ah I see that’s interesting. Didn’t really have a choice then with all coming down like that. Sounds a bit stressful. I can’t see a crack in the bay ceiling but it definitely appears to have dropped slightly on one side. There is a bit of give in the plaster of the ceiling of the bay and across the room. Ceiling is full of bulging cracks elsewhere across the room. Previous owners have wallpapered over all of it it’s lathe and plaster underneath so I can’t fathom how it hasn’t fallen down in chunks yet to say how cracked it is. When I find a builder willing to take on the work I think it’ll be a strip it back to brick and move out for a bit kind of job.