Costs on 16th century grade 2 listed?

[k8_jose]

Hiya,
We're considering buying a 16th century grade 2 listed house that needs quite a bit of work potentially...
It's been lived in for 30 years by a family with patch ups along the way it seems.
Its timber frame with render, but unfortunately a lot of the render was redone with concrete before the current owners so we're concered about the potential state of the frame underneath... Also its been painted all over with an incorrect non breathable paint.
The roof was also replaced with tiles from thatch a long time ago putting a lot of weight on it, causing purlins ect to bend.
Long term we're wondering if we'd have to strip the rendor off totally, re do in lime and maybe redo the roof. This feel scary and expensive so thinking about trying to just shore it up for a bit with stripping paint and redoing in breathable one, and securing roof a little for now and hoping it okay for 10 years or so until we have the kind of money needed to do it properly - as guessing that could be £200k plus maybe...
For now we'd probably tackle rewiring (not done for 25 years), new boiler (also 25 years old), replacing a couple of wobbly ceilings, and patching up windows where possible and replacing where not. We hoped we could do this for about £100k...
Any thoughts /advise would be much appriciated!!
Thanks

 

[a twig]

RUN! Unless you’d be comfortable potentially paying double the above repairs budget when horrors are found underneath the render and a lot of the timber frame needs replacing / repairing.

Other more optimistic views may be available

 

[k8_jose]

You think repairs could be £400k to external frame?
We assume it’s not totally rotten or there’d be signs of bricks the base pushing out. But obviously haven’t had a thorough structural survey done.
It’s definitely a risk, but it’s priced probably £400k below what it would be if it was not in need of repair/renovation

 

[Kearn]

You think repairs could be £400k to external frame?
We assume it’s not totally rotten or there’d be signs of bricks the base pushing out. But obviously haven’t had a thorough structural survey done.
It’s definitely a risk, but it’s priced probably £400k below what it would be if it was not in need of repair/renovation

A word of warning/advice.
Never. Assume anything when it comes to a timber frame!

Unless you can see and access all four faces of the timber, you cannot be sure of its condition. This is why no structural framer will ever give fixed prices for jobs. It’s impossible to know what you’re repairing and the extent/method until it’s exposed.

The cost of timber repairs isn’t just carpentry. You have to include structural scaffold, SE fees, panel/plinth/window removal (and obviously the reinstatement once repairs are complete). There’s the mess and depending on scale of job / other personal factors, it’s likely not a liveable home while the work is done so you’ll be paying short term rent, and increased unoccupied buildings insurance…

If you’re serious, then you need to locate a genuine conservation experienced structural framer to assess the house. Someone who is close enough to undertake the work, which is likey 18months lead time.

Do not waste any time or money with RICS. There are very very few surveyors in this land who understand timber frames.

 

[jamest]

Are you sure that the tiles are heavier than the original thatch? Thatch, especially straw thatch, can be quite heavy (significantly heavier after rain). Dry, it's definitely heavier than a slate tiled roof, but lighter than standard modern concrete tiles - closer to the weight of a traditional clay tiled roof (which might only be a bit heavier). The rafters and purlins of old thatched cottages often show signs of bowing. To be sure what's going on, you need someone who has experience of old thatched roofs to give you an assessment of the structural integrity of the current set-up.

Regarding the frame - exactly what Kearn said. Sometimes, it can be surprising how little damage has been done by concrete renders - so you might be lucky, but you really do need to get someone who knows about timber framing to take a look.

If the frame has brick infill panels, then the bricks and the render itself provide considerable structural strength, so even if the usual suspects have completely rotted away (sole plates, corner posts, mortices), you might see no external signs at all. This is the case for the house opposite mine - 16th century timber framed thatched cottage that was concrete rendered in the 1970s: the sole plate on three sides and the two front corner posts have completely rotted away (well, they are mostly dust) and the surveyor didn't notice anything. The house has been standing happily with not so much as a crack in the render since I've been living opposite.

 

[Flyfisher]

Hmm, where to start?!

We took on our 'project' in 2007 and it's only now in the final stages of interior decoration. The main part of the house is c.1500 close-studded oak timber frame with a C17 addition of rubble wall and a C18 addition of mainly chalk block, all under three sections of pantile roof though two sections were probably thatched originally, as evidenced by the steep pitch. It had been severely neglected since at least the 1960s and the timber-frame part had been re-rendered with cement render in the mid 1930s, based on the photos I've managed to find.

I could write a book about all the details of the work involved but, in hindsight, I'd say the main things to consider are as follows:

1. Stage of Life - your life, not the house!
Are you really, really, really prepared, both physically and mentally, for a major new project in your life? I was fortunate to be able to retire early and do a lot of the required work myself. Even so, it has taken a long time and a lot of money. In my case, it also meant 'camping' in the house during the week while Mrs Flyfisher stayed in our previous house and continued to work and FF Junior completed school before leaving for uni. It was about 4 years before we actually moved in as a family and Mrs FF retired as well, but even then parts of the house were still a building site and we had various sections of scaffolding up for around 5-6 years. Obviously, not all renovation projects are the same - indeed, it's probably more accurate to say that no two renovation projects are the same - but I mention all this to highlight how disruptive they can be to a previously 'normal' family life. How you deal with this is also, obviously, individual to your own circumstances and demeanour but it's certainly something important to think about.

2. Finance
Any such project is going to need finance and almost certainly more finance than you think. The more work you can do yourself, the less finance will be needed but the longer things will take. Only you can decide on an acceptable balance for your circumstances and borrowing philosophy, so I can't really offer useful advice on this. Except, perhaps, to say that such projects are not a good choice as a financial investment. They are not really a quick 'doer-upper' project to then sell on for a quick profit. They are really a whole lifestyle choice and, in my case at least, a 'forever' home.

3. Help
You'll need a lot of it. Even if you DIY the entire project, you'll need help to learn about new skills you'll need to develop. With an open mind and a positive attitude you'll be able to develop skills you probably never thought you could. I look at it this way; all trades people have had to learn and develop their skills so why can't I do the same? It may sound a little arrogant but we've ALL managed to learn new things throughout our lives and most of us will have built a career out of some of them, so why can't we continue this trend and learn new skills when we need them? Sure, we all find some things more difficult than others - I still can't do a decent plastering job! - but we can all try. In my experience, the biggest challenge is learning WHAT to do and HOW to do it, after which it's just a matter of practice and taking the time to practice. Even if you don't DIY a lot of the work, you'll need a lot of help in finding the right people to do the work for you. This will also take time and you'll likely make some mistakes along the way, but the good people you find will be like gold dust. Just don't expect them to be available at the drop of a hat - the good people are ALWAYS in demand!
The good news is that there is an abundance of help available and of course the interweb makes it all readily accessible.

4. Don't Panic
This wonderful forum is full of new posters worrying about finding some woodworm, timber decay, damp and all manner of things that would put anyone living in a new build or 'modern' (say up to 50 years old) house into a blind panic. Doom-laden survey reports often have much the same effect. I know this to be true because I used to be one of those persons. But time is a great healer and, with a lot of help and reassurance, I came to realise that my house had stood in all weathers for about 500 years without falling down and in almost all of that time it had no central heating keeping things dry, no breathable roofing membrane to keep the attic spaces properly dry, open fires with large draughty chimneys were only lit when rooms were occupied such that many rooms were never heated at all! Furthermore, the timber frame had moved considerably over the centuries (probably within the first 100 years or so) such that floors and ceilings were distinctly un-level, and the roof as well, but it remained solid for all those years and remains so today. Yes, I've had to replace sections of roof timbers, sole plates and wall plates and even added some metal braces to strengthen a few areas of the timber frame, but I'd say that's pretty minimal for a 500 year old house! Plus, with all the new knowledge and skills I've learned over the past 18 years or so, I'm more confident about being able to fix any problem that does arise, which is quite reassuring.

5. Enjoy
If none of the above has put you off then good luck, buckle up and enjoy the journey because it'll probably be a long one