Conservatory

[michael cox]

We live in a Grade 11 listed building we have had a plastic conservatory since 1995, we have been told we need to replace this with a wooden conservatory with a glass roof, which we have applied for consent through the local heritage foundation and the listed buildings dept at our local council, the heritage have passed the proposal plans and we are now awaiting consent from the council. WE are bewildered as most other grade 11 listed building within our area have plastic conservatories and plastic windows which have not been requested replacements. Do we need to replace our conservatory, as it has been up 10yrs+, should we ever want to move, can we do so just with the consent or again do we need to replace, or can we keep our plastic one with or without consent as it has been up for over 10 years is not overlooked and seems more in keeping with the property than the wooden lean to suggested. OUr home was built in 1904, when we erected the conservatory we went through the local council before erecting the conservatory who advised us that as it was not longer than the house and not overlooking anyone would be okay, unfortuantely we did not realise (as on purchasing our property in '91) that the building was listed, there was no mention of it on any of our correspondence. Please could you advise us on the best way to approach this situation, as the replacement is going to cost us in excess of £15,000 which we do not have at this present time.

 

[Nemesis]

I'm bewildred that these listed buildings have uPVC windows and conservatories too. Have you raised this with the local authority?

It does seem that your local authority gave you very poor advice regarding erecting the conservatory. Do you have the advice in writing?

Unfortunately it may be that the person you spoke to at the time was not connected with conservation. Clearly you should have applied for LBC and presumably didn't.

The council can take action to require the removal of unauthorised work, no time limit, but with regard to making you replace it (unless the uPVC one was a replacement for a previous one) I think that may not be so easily enforced.

In these cases it is usual to give time to comply also.

Have you had a meeting with the Conservation Officer to discuss all the issues?

I am at a loss to understand also the reference to a local heritage foundation passing plans - with a Grade II building only the local authority can grant LBC (however see later post... although LBC would still have to come from the local authority).

 

[Lime]

unfortuantely we did not realise (as on purchasing our property in '91) that the building was listed, there was no mention of it on any of our correspondence.

Either you had a slip-shod solicitor or you didn't read the paperwork when you made the purchase. A search should have been carried out to find any restriction or legal matter applying to the property.
When you spoke to the local council originally the fact that your house is grade 11 listed (and you didn't tell them) means you did not get the right advice.

Were you unaware of the listing after living in the property for 4 years?

Everyone I know who lives in or around a listed area is only too aware of the restrictions listing brings and where the area begins and ends.

 

[Nemesis]

Er - there is no such thing as a 'listed area'. There are listed buildings and there are curtilages to listed buildings...

 

[Lime]

Er - there is no such thing as a 'listed area'. There are listed buildings and there are curtilages to listed buildings...

I think that you are being pedantic.
In my town there are several areas within which every house is listed.

 

[thiambal]

Is this a conservation area? Rather than a listed building? What is special about an area built around 1904 to make them properties listed?

 

[Nemesis]

I agree it would be unusual, but not unknown.

Letchworth Garden City...

 

[Nemesis]

No, I'm not being pedantic. I'm being truthful - and it's important to sort out what is what here. Legal challenges, planning appeals, and Public Inquiries deal in pedantry though - or as it could also be called, the law and planning policies.

There is no such thing in law as a 'listed area'. There may be groups of listed buildings, there may be buildings listed for 'group value', there may be conservation areas and there may be buildings listed within those conservation areas.

And it's very, very difficult to generalise where planning is concerned, as so much does depend on individual buildings and their settings what would be deemed acceptable and would not.

If a CA there may or may not additionally be an Article 4 direction.

And it's important here to know exactly what the situation is.

 

[Penners]

Michael - I am a little confused by your explanation. Are you saying that the local authority is insisting that you replace the uPVC conservatory with a timber and glass one?

If so, is it possible that the other listed properties with uPVC conservatories built them with Listed Building Consent, whereas yours was perhaps built without LBC?

I know this suggestion sounds unlikely, in view of the local authority's attitude towards your conservatory, but administrations change over the years, and attitudes can change with them.

However, I'm afraid the bottom line (as I understand it) is: whoever is the current owner of a listed building is responsible for taking action to rectify previous infringements of the rules, no matter whether they were responsible for that original infringement, and no matter how much time has passed.

 

[Nemesis]

Location: 5 AND 7 ***** LANE (north side)
LETCHWORTH, NORTH HERTFORDSHIRE, HERTFORDSHIRE
Photographer: N/A
Date Photographed: N/A
Date listed: 04 July 1997
Date of last amendment: 04 July 1997
Grade II




TL 2234 LETCHWORTH ***** LANE (North side) 948/5/10003 Nos.5 AND 7 - II A pair of semi-detached cottages. 1905-6 with late C20 alterations and additions. By Geoffrey Lucas, architect. Roughcast walls on a brick plinth, plain tile roof covering and 2 brick ridge stacks with decorative capping courses. PLAN: linear range with weatherboarded offshut to front forming back-to-back entrance porches. EXTERIOR: front (south) elevation; one-and-a-half storeys, 3 bays, with central weatherboarded lean-to offshut, flanked by 4-light side-hung casement windows with glazing bars, one to each cottage. Offshut has 2 small 4-pane pivot windows, and doorways in the returns, No.7 (right) with original plank door and frame. First floor with 3 wide gabled dormer windows, with weatherboarded apexes. The centre dormer is shared, and has coupled 2-light casements. The outer dormers have tripartite casements, arranged 1:2:1, the central lights fixed. The rear of No.7 has a late C20 conservatory. INTERIORS: No.5 retains original fittings, including plank doors with contemporary ironmongery, a winder stair with plain balusters, and fitted bedroom cupboards. The cottages were built in the earliest phase of development of the Letchworth Garden City, and clearly demonstrate, by means of their size, plan form and detailing, the aim of providing affordable small-scale housing. Geoffrey Lucas was awarded the prize for the grouped cottages category in the Cheap Cottage Exhibition of 1905, organised to demonstrate how affordable housing could be provided for the rural worker.



Now I'm not at all saying that this is the house, but...

If something like then it does look as though buildings in the area have been listed fairly recently, and with conservatories in place at the time of listing.

So it's worth looking at exactly when the house was listed - it may be that it was after the conservatory was built!

It also may be that the other houses are indeed not listed but in a Conservation Area and without an Article 4. The ref to a local heritage committee could be a Conservation Area Committee.

If the house is to be put up for sale, then it may be possible that the situation is made known to a potential purchaser with an agreement to replace the conservatory. These things will require discussion with the local authority.

 

[Mark]

To possibly clarify one other point. If you do something without planning permission, then there is a time limit after which no enforcement action can be taken. iirc 4 years for building work, 10 years for use.

Listed building consent does not so far as I am aware have such a limitation and enforcement action can be taken at any time.

I am also astounded that you could buy a property and not be aware that it is listed. Perhaps look into a complaint to the solicitors and look at getting the rectification cost off them - if they really didnt tell you.

How do you know that the other buildings are listed, did not have lbc and they have not been served notice to corect things?

 

[Nemesis]

Far too late to take action against a solicitor if the property was purchased in 1991. There is a limitation. And if listed after that...

IoE is not awash with listed buildings in that area. The one illustrated (see above) is special. I suspect that the others are in a Conservation Area?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

someone's misunderstanding things here. If (IF) it's the property Nemesis located on Images of England, then it was listed in 1997, ie. After Michael Cox:
a. Bought the house (1991)
b. Built the conservatory (1995)

The local authority CANNOT insist on something being "improved" over the situation at the time of listing. (As I know to my great irritation, as we have a group of post-war cottages which EH/DCMS took so long listing they had plastic windows put in before being listed)

Michael, I'd ask your local council to quote you the precise bit of legislation (not just the title of the Act, but the exact paragraph) under which they are requiring you to replace a conservatory that already existed at the time of listing, if that is the case here.

Oh, and, a constant source of annoyance, it's Grade II listed, not Grade 11 :lol:

 

[Nemesis]

Exactly - the building if it is indeed this one - is listed along with the conservatory! Which was there at the time of listing.

However - it may also be in the Conservation Area. I'm thinking about that one...


PS these sound wonderful!

PPS - Gareth I bet that the plastic windows if in place in 'your' buildings at the time of application would have meant they would not have been listed! Grrrr!!!!

 

[Lime]

No, I'm not being pedantic. I'm being truthful - and it's important to sort out what is what here. Legal challenges, planning appeals, and Public Inquiries deal in pedantry though - or as it could also be called, the law and planning policies.

There is no such thing in law as a 'listed area'. There may be groups of listed buildings, there may be buildings listed for 'group value', there may be conservation areas and there may be buildings listed within those conservation areas.

And it's very, very difficult to generalise where planning is concerned, as so much does depend on individual buildings and their settings what would be deemed acceptable and would not.

If a CA there may or may not additionally be an Article 4 direction.

And it's important here to know exactly what the situation is.

There has never a been any question of your truthfulness as far as I'm concerned and I agree with you that it is important to know the facts as they pertain to this "Grade II listed building".
However I was neither posting in a court of law nor attempting to assert that in legal terms "listed areas" exist.
I was just replying to a post.

I was using the word "area" to mean the place or situation in which the listed buildings exist and the word "listed" to refer to the buildings within the area.
Perhaps you will excuse me for using ordinary colloquial english like wot is spoke 'ere.

 

[Nemesis]

No, you told me I was being pedantic. I was not, simply trying to be accurate. A great virtue in these sort of circumstances.

If indeed this is the building I posted the description of above, although I appreciate it may not be, then it is listed and so is the conservatory. The conservatory was in place at the time of listing, and the local authority, as Gareth has said, unless there is some particular circumstance of which we are as yet unaware, cannot force demolition and replacement. However, it may be that it was erected without the consent of the local heritage foundation, and in that case it is not a simple matter! See below.

If they have got this wrong and Michael has been put to expense and obviously considerable worry then I think if this was me I'd be complaining to the Ombudsman about maladministration.

I'd also be checking my home insurance for legal cover.

 

[Nemesis]

PS there is however a Heritage Foundation...

http://www.lgchf.com/

See particularly the part about windows, which has a PDF link (the moratorium and grant scheme to repalce inappropriate windows and help with the legal difficulties when selling)

and...

http://www.lgchf.com/alteringyourgarden.htm

Hmmmmm.



'If you are considering extending or altering your Garden City property please refer to the Letchworth Garden City Design Guide here. Please note there is a fee payable for applications for Heritage Foundation consent. Under a specifically created scheme of management for the Garden City, the Heritage Foundation has powers to grant or refuse permission for changes. You should also contact the Planning Department at North Hertfordshire District Council on 01462 474000.'


This may be applicable for a new conservatory, BUT I think that this is a complex situation and maybe a new conservatory is not required... not as a Grade II Listed Building, but possibly because of the freehold and wider legal framework? Not a simple matter though.

'Conservatories*

Like other alterations to houses in Letchworth, often Conservatories* require the consent of the Heritage Foundation, whether the property is leasehold or freehold. These are treated in a similar manner to rear extensions as similar issues often arise.

The impact of conservatories on the residential amenity of neighbouring occupiers can be significantly less than is normal for solid extensions. There is less overshadowing and loss of daylight to neighbouring properties compared to most other types of extension. Therefore, in some cases, conservatories are more likely to be acceptable compared to equivalent solid extensions.

In these circumstances, it is felt that the following criteria, in addition to normal considerations for rear extensions, are appropriate for conservatories

up to 3.65 metres in depth from the rear extended building line of the property;
one metre separation is required to the side boundary (not boundaries between semi-detached properties);
in cases where inadequate fencing or boundary planting exists, obscured glazing should exist up to a height of 1.67 metres from finished floor level; and
Applications relating to early Garden City terraced properties will require careful consideration and a reduced depth of conservatory may well be appropriate to ensure the character of the property is maintained and neighbours not adversely effected.

*For the avoidance of doubt, conservatories are structures that have a translucent roof and in addition, part or fully glazed flanks. This glazing can be obscured.'

 

[Nemesis]

As an addition:

http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk

IoE number 470130 is worth looking at, although I think the 1950 date is an error!

 

[Nemesis]

This has been niggling at the back of my mind - it was ringing bells.
An Act of Parliament.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/locact95/Ukla_19950002_en_1.htm