Conservation Officers. And carpets.

[shobo]

Morning
An observation - my local CO, doesn't seem to want to engage in conservations that I have tried to have with him on care of my listed building. I am new to the listed building game, and on a steep learning curve. Do they justify their salary in ways other than giving advice to owners ? I had an early conversation with him on the merits of carpet / rug / bare on very old floorboards, when he said that it's ok to nail gripperrods to the floorboards (a very foolish thing imo and I wouldn't entertain it) since then he has avoided me. I'm guessing that advice to owners is not in their job description. Perhaps I've stressed him out.

 

[TheForge]

Hi Shobo, which local authority are you in? Most COs are helpful if you approach them in the right way. The problem is that there are too few of them, with too much to do and with too little budget or resources to do it. Most are fighting to justify there positions in the face of Council cuts.

 

[Flyfisher]

I suspect most COs are too busy to spend much time on basic decorative matters (though they might want to be involved if the property was grade 1).

Nailing gripper strips to the floorboards might not always be in keeping with a period property but it's not really going to do any damage (well, no more than, say, stair rods) and is easily reversible. A bit like other decorative things really. Garish wall papers and paint colours would also ruin the ambience of most period properties for most people, but would not be damaging to the basic building itself and could be easily and invisibly reversed. Perhaps this is the test for whether a CO needs to be involved?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi there, and welcome to as you rightly put it the "listed building game" a game "where CO's would prefer your building crumble to ruins rather than have something done to it" as a friend of mine put it before we bought ours.

You're right in terms of them taking their sweet time to respond to owners. I had to reprimand the public servant for whom I pay at least some of their salary in our area when I complained she hadn't responded to me in over a week, she then replied to say that firstly under "her" rules she only had to reply to emails within 10 working days. I pointed out to her that within 10 days didn't mean she had to wait 10 days to reply!

Now the other comments on the subject are correct, there are too few of them, but that said I'm not buying the "they're really busy line", but I admit I could be wrong. My CO works part time for two councils (making a full time post), and has 650 listed properties on her books. Of that let's say 10% have ongoing queries at any time (I mean doing anything to these houses costs a fortune so most probably don't), so actually she's only going to have enquiries from 60 people. Of course you do have to factor in the time it takes them to drive around, trespass on people's properties, try to gain entry to a property by attempting to con a tradesmen that they're allowed, so clearly they are a bit stretched !

My view having been a new listed building person, is that as one person told me "you have to play the game". If it's something significant that you want to do (replace a roof, build an extension) or something that would noticed by someone else (as our CO told me regarding satellite dish "so long as I don't get any complaints from your neighbours, I don't mind (she doesn't mind? Achtung!)), then you probably need to seek approval. They don't really do advice because that's not their brief. They aren't on your side, they're on the side of the building which is fine, but I wouldn't be asking my CO about anything unless I really needed permission (for the reasons mentioned above) and the reality is despite what the Listed building zealots might tell you on this forum. Nailing some carpet gripper down to some planks of wood certainly doesn't fall into my category of asking the CO for advice or permission or anything, you'll probably do more damage to the wood by gluing it.

I've probably done things to my house that probably would need a CO's involvement but she wasn't interested when the estate that owned our house before us, poured concrete all over it and tanked the walls with bitumen sheets, so there's a balance.

Lastly as ever I've waffled on, just relax, look up and seek advice from the forums (like this one and SPAB) and others, sympathetic development is key, don't think that putting in UPVC double glazed windows will be ok, but equally, replacing some knackered floorboards or uncovering an original oak plank door from behind a gypsum stud partition wall, I'd say was ok and not something your "overworked" CO needed to be concerned about.

All the best.

Paul.

 

[MikeG]

........ a game "where CO's would prefer your building crumble to ruins rather than have something done to it" as a friend of mine put it before we bought ours.......

Your friend set up a classic straw man with that little bit of nonsense. The false dichotomy is also obvious. There isn't a CO in the country who would agree with that stated position, and it simply does not pertain. It sounds like the statement of someone who wanted to do something to a Listed building which the CO officer didn't want to have happen.

 

[Mickey]

Indeed I was shocked by how far a CO will let you go if Nick Knowles Original features programme last night (Somerset farmhouse) was anything to go by :shock:

 

[skier-hughes]

Our CO has always been very timely with replies and visits even though our house is not listed.

 

[Flyfisher]

. . . and welcome to as you rightly put it the "listed building game" a game "where CO's would prefer your building crumble to ruins rather than have something done to it" as a friend of mine put it before we bought ours.

Your friend may have had a bad experience but your description of COs is not one I recognise after three successful LBC applications over 10 years on a G2* property.

Our CO has been readily available for advice since before we even took on our house and we met a number of times, on site, to discuss our plans for the property and what we would and would not be allowed to do with it. As you can imagine, this was a great help when deciding whether to take it on. I've lost count of the number of times he has visited (always at my request) and my telephone calls or emails have always been answered within a day or two.

As for not offering advice, perhaps it depends on the type of questions being asked. Our CO has provided invaluable advice for us and has suggested many things that we didn't think of or thought would not be allowed.

Yes, the COs primary responsibility is to the property and not the owner (and rightly so, or what's the point?) but this doesn't mean simply refusing any changes, more that any changes are sensitive to the nature of the property. Because our house is G2*, all LBC applications are referred to English Heritage (or whatever they are now called) and during our kitchen extension application and site visits the EH officer expressly admitted that if period properties were not allowed to change then they would become unsuitable for modern living and therefore unappealing to prospective buyers. The result would be empty properties - and no property decays faster than an empty one!

So I'd say your friend's experience of COs is not only at odds with mine and many others here but his/her attitude is not even aligned with the conservation bodies he or she supposedly represents. There will always be bad apples of course, but let's keep things in perspective.

 

[mims&pip]

Just to add my voice to the rest.....

I believe COs are most likely overworked and I also appreciate that much of what they suggest/advise is down to their own, individual intrepretation of what is 'best' for a particular property. I must confess that some of the decisions I have seen referred to here on PP and those relating to friends with listed properties have been downright odd, though.

Despite having owned seven period properties - ranging from Tudor, through Georgian to Arts & Crafts - I have to add that we have never owned a listed building. However, when we were attempting to purchase a large, four hundred year old, Grade 2 listed house in Wiltshire during 2011, we made numerous attempts to contact the CO in order to arrange a meeting to discuss unfinished major works (that required LBC which didn't appear to have been obtained by the vendors :roll: ), but our messages went unanswered and no meeting took place.

We walked away. So our - admittedly limited - experience was not great.

Mims x

 

[Anonymous]

I stand by my comments, CO's don't do pre purchase consultations, is what our CO told me until I badgered her about it and she finally relented.
CO's reputations are not good generally, my friends comments were an exaggeration of the truth, but the sentiment is the same.

The reality is that most people do modifications to their properties without getting the CO involved. There are two reasons for this 1. it's expensive, sure it's free to apply, but not free to have all the paperwork and drawings done, 2. it takes way too long, 8 weeks consultation is stupid.... this is only so people in your neighbourhood can raise objections to what you're doing.

The only time any of that matters is when you come to sell your property... now in 10 years time, a bloody minded surveyor might, might, spot that I've done something that might have needed LBC, but I can simply say it was a repair and all bets are off. Sure if I'm building an extension then the planning department generally will be involved and by definition the CO but ours is less than helpful.

I've heard tales of pre-application consultations being done with our CO where they say "yes you can do that" and "you should definitely apply for that" only for them to deny all knowledge of the conversation when it comes to the application, costing the applicant £100's if not more.

So everyone I've spoken to on the subject of CO's has very little good to say about them. I take people on face value and I'm a friendly kind of guy (I really am), so if I don't like someone it's nothing to do with them not allowing this or that (I actually had my two LBC's approved already without too much of a hitch well we got 3 roof lights instead of 4), and everything to do with experience of the person in question.

Maybe there are good one's but apart from on TV I've not seen or met any or heard anyone else (apart from on here) have a good word to say about them.
I come from the point of view that people buy listed buildings because they want to look after them and restore them and be the good guardians they want to be, so to be faced with such attitude from CO's who often seem to treat owners as the enemy, perhaps doesn't help their reputation....

All the best...replies will be read, but no responded to.

 

[Flyfisher]

I stand by my comments, CO's don't do pre purchase consultations, is what our CO told me until I badgered her about it and she finally relented.
CO's reputations are not good generally, my friends comments were an exaggeration of the truth, but the sentiment is the same.

So do I.
"CO's don't do pre purchase consultations". Well ours did, though I'm not going to exaggerate the truth and apply it to ALL COs as you and your friend have done with your own experiences. Perhaps CO reputations are not generally good because people like your friend exaggerate the truth to reinforce their sentiments?

The reality is that most people do modifications to their properties without getting the CO involved. There are two reasons for this 1. it's expensive, sure it's free to apply, but not free to have all the paperwork and drawings done, 2. it takes way too long, 8 weeks consultation is stupid.... this is only so people in your neighbourhood can raise objections to what you're doing.

Very little is free if you want other people to do all the work but if you're willing to make a little effort yourself then LBC applications can indeed cost nothing at all. Two out of my three successful applications cost me nothing because I did all the drawings and written submissions myself. I say 'drawings' but they were little more than sketches really and I supplemented them with photographs to clearly explain my proposed works. As for the timescale, it's governed by the planning rules over which a CO has little or no control. Having said that, I needed to rebuild a failing chimney and our CO came out to inspect within a few days of calling him. We discussed and verbally agreed the work and he said he was fine with me starting the work immediately - which I did. So the LBC process didn't actually delay anything, didn't cost me anything and kept the records up to date. I suppose I could have just done the work anyway and argued it was a repair if necessary, but my point is why take the risk when the process works, costs nothing and doesn't delay anything?

I've heard tales . . . .

I'm sure you have, but you've now also heard tales about how well the process can work and how some COs are extremely helpful. I wonder if this will help you reconsider your sweeping statements, or will you simply dismiss these 'inconvenient truths'?

All the best...replies will be read, but no responded to.

I guess not then. Cognitive dissonance? :wink:

 

[Gareth Hughes]

You're right in terms of them taking their sweet time to respond to owners. I had to reprimand the public servant for whom I pay at least some of their salary in our area when I complained she hadn't responded to me in over a week, she then replied to say that firstly under "her" rules she only had to reply to emails within 10 working days. I pointed out to her that within 10 days didn't mean she had to wait 10 days to reply!

I wonder whether your self-evidently aggressive and hostile attitude might be a factor in the CO not being a great hurry to respond? You'd certainly go to the bottom of my pile.

 

[Anonymous]

I said I wouldn't reply because as ever this seems to descend into people who disagree with you making borderline personal attacks.
I'm neither hostile nor aggressive Gareth and your words are borderline imho. I'm also not sure on the Cognitive Dissonance statement, I have a good relationship with our CO and my comments are simply a reflection of some of my and other people's experiences and opinions as they've been expressed to me. I've already stated that my friends "sweeping statement" was just that. I don't profess to be right 100% and never have.

I've simply tried to advise the OP that a balance needs to be struck (in my opinion) and perhaps not to bother an overworked CO with things that don't matter that much, something that I think you chose to ignore.

I accept that others have different opinions and experiences to me, that's life, It would be nice if i was afforded the same respect, it seems not in this forum. :-(

Having considered things I've decided that this will be my last ever post on Period Property UK as I'm fed up with being treated in this way and I don't need the stress of it, you win.

Good luck to everyone sincerely with your projects.

Bye.

Paul.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh, dear. Still, to turn up on a forum that attracts period property enthusiasts and COs and to bitch about COs is perhaps a tad suicidal.

I liked my CO, but she was a young girl, and she was no Gareth Hughes, or Penners, or Flyfisher, or Mims, or middi,or MikeG. The advice you’ll get on this forum is really excellent and coming from a huge pool of knowledge. We’re lucky that there are really expertful people still writing here who do have time and interest to listen to concerns about gripper rods into old floorboards. (Don’t do it! Use Liberon oil, then wax, then buy old rugs!!)

And I’ll take this chance to say how Beacon Cottage has been saved and shaped by Gareth Hughes, who I met on this forum, and who has taken so much time to help me, and get it listed. I’m so thrilled he is now a CO much closer to our location and I wish him the best of luck in his new role.

 

[skier-hughes]

I liked my CO, but she was a young girl, and she was no Gareth Hughes, or Penners, or Flyfisher, or Mims, or middi,or MikeG.

She was obviously a skier-hughes..................... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Mickey]

cre8toruk I am so sorry you (and your friend(s))feel that way but I just wanted to say please don't cut off your nose to spite your face this forum is such a fantastic source of real knowledge and shared experiences it's a shame to leave in the manner you have. I can honestly say without this forum, which I have been avidly reading for over 10 years and posting a little, our building would be very much the poorer, I have learnt so much from people who have undertaken restorations that would keep me awake at night. There are contributers on here who I know are CO's (I don't know them personally) and it must be a little soul destroying to read your posts, I'd guess like most jobs within that kind of hierarchy they don't have free rein to operate how they personally would wish and are hamstringed by the SLA's imposed on them by management. CO posts are been drastically reduced and they are now often covering large areas. Indeed, where I am my CO can't respond to written or telephone requests for advice, the system is we have to apply for pre advice and pay a £200 fee each time, we are not able to seek additional advice or clarification on responses, frustrating yes but I have a wealth of (free) expert advice on here so I know more or less the correct way to go about things and that is invaluable. I don't much like some of the decisions and I speak as someone who was made to replace a double glazed window (inserted prior to listing) with a single glazed one ....yet another window to vacum during condensation season!) but sometimes you just have to suck it up. I have now written three LBA's myself, all of which have been approved and I honestly don't think I could have done that without PPUK.

All the best with your project.
Mickey