Cobbled basement( with built in stream)...advice??

[JanJonWestWales]

Hi everyone. We are about to tackle the last "major" job in our renovation project.
The last room is (or will become) the library. However below this room is a basement.

the floor of the library will come up, as the floorboards are shot, and several joists will need replacing. I think the main beam is ok.
so I will have access to the basement below
The basement has a lovely cobbled floor, and slate benches(cold slabs), and outside access(currently blocked up). You will see in the photo the post for the main beam, which might need replacing.

The major problem is that the basement has a stream running through it....literally!! Not visible in the photo, but running from the back corner, across the room via a trench, and out via the exterior door.
My plan was to ...
- lift up the cobbles, and keep them safe.
- hack off the old lime render from the walls
- dig out a deeper trench and lay in perforated pipes
This might be tough work, as bedrock is not far below the surface, it's shale, angle pointing upwards, so a great foundation, hopefully I can chip away at it, to make the trench deep enough
- then cover with NHL5, and lay back in the cobbles.
- re-lime the walls
- repair the floor joists, and beam supporting posts, so I can then to start work on the library above.

So here is my challenge...
1 will perforated piping work?
2 should I attempt a limecrete floor (I did this in a small area in our hallway, and it worked a treat)
3 any other comments advice on cobbles/very wet basements appreciated
Thanks
J&J

http://Www.blaencwmbychan.blogspot.com

 

[Roger H]

Fascinating, and a great blog too.

Some questions – Does the stream NEED to be moved into a pipe? i.e. has it caused flooding in its present arrangement?

Do you need to lift all the cobbles and remove the internal lime render or can it not just be limited to the channel where the stream runs? Laying cobbles to match previous quality is a lot harder than one might think.

I’d think solid pipe below the property would be better than perforated, but that is just a guess.

 

[Penners]

Why are you using perforated piping? If you want to enclose the stream under the floor, I should have thought that solid piping would have been better.

However, does the stream ever flood? If so, then I wonder whether it might sometimes slip the surly bonds of any type of enclosure.

 

[Penners]

Oops - Roger and I duplicate posting!

 

[JanJonWestWales]

Great minds think alike

Ok so maybe "a stream" was a slight exageration. It's actually seepage of rainwater from under the rest of the house.

If you look at the main picture on the blog, you will see the window to the basement on the lower right, so water runs under the house into the basement.
There is enough water for it to "flow" regularly during winter. It does dry up in the summer.
So I don't think it would ever overflow/flood.

I was considering perforated pipe, as I thought it would help the water flow. But open to advice, piping is not my area of knowledge nor experience

 

[Penners]

Ah, if it's seepage then that's a slightly different situation. Presumably it's seeping into the cellar in various places, in which case a perforated pipe would be necessary in order to allow all of the various sources of water to enter it.

However, if the seepage is all coming from the outside of one external wall, have you considered trying to divert it before it gets into the cellar? It might be possible to dig down on the outside of that wall and lay a French drain with a perforated pipe in it, to carry the water away from the wall laterally.

If you're not sure exactly where the water is coming from, you may wish to consider getting an expert in to have a look and suggest a solution.

 

[Flyfisher]

I would guess that much depends on the underlying geology. Is shale bedrock porous or is the groundwater simply running over it because it can't soak into it? If the latter then I imagine the water will be quite diffuse across the entire surface, in which case it might be difficult to contain and pipe away. I agree that a perforated pipe sounds like the best thing if you're trying to collect water from the ground rather than direct it, but I would guess it's the actual nature of the ground that will determine if a single pipe will suffice or if more than one would be required. Although if there is already a concentrated flow of water then that's clearly a good clue as to where water is being naturally directed so a pipe in that vicinity would surely do no harm and seems like a good place to start. It's shame the existing floor is so solid - as RogerH has mentioned, it may not be easy to re-lay them to match existing ones. Is it a very large area and is it possible/practical to consider lifting all the cobbles, laying a number of pipes and then relaying the entire floor? It would solve the matching problem, though would also be very disruptive, though perhaps no more so than if sections were done at a time and then further pipes were found to be necessary.

Hmm. Probably not particularly helpful ramblings now I've re-read them! More questions than answers really.

 

[Penners]

There's a good title for a song in there, FF! :wink:

 

[Feltwell]

Lovely, lovely house! (It deserves two lovelies!) Only certain pictures were showing on the blog for me, did others find that?

A slightly controversial question - why is your "stream" a problem? If it's a cellar space that accessible only via a hatch in the floor, I presume it's not going to be used very much, is that the intention?

If so, *if* the existing arrangement is long-standing, working and isn't causing damp problems (I realise that you haven't actually said that so far!) then why not leave it as is as an interesting feature?

 

[Flyfisher]

There's a good title for a song in there, FF! :wink:

I had to Focus there for a second :wink:

I'm impressed though (assuming I've not missed something else) . . . not a particularly well-known band outside of prog rock circles

 

[Feltwell]

I had to Focus there for a second :wink:

Sounds like a load of old Hocus Pocus to me.

 

[Flyfisher]

Could be . . . though that would be a different album :wink:

 

[Penners]

assuming I've not missed something else

Well, I'm afraid I had this in mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDTvLldOgZs

But Hocus Pocus, I do remember Focus. (Weren't they Dutch or Swedish?)

 

[Flyfisher]

Ah, missed that one, I was thinking of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsqFEI_Ulhs

Good digression though :wink:

And yes, Dutch. In fact, I saw them play only last year at the Hertford Corn Exchange and I'm sure Thijs van Leer (the mad yodeller on Hocus Pocus) was using the same old Hammond organ as seen on their 1970s Whistle Test appearance playing their other well know song 'Sylvia', which I'm sure you'd recognise. I only mention this because I'm still amazed to have seen one of my favourite bands from my distant youth playing on the same stage that I've played many times . . . which should give you some idea of how small the venue really is - 'corn exchange' sounds very grand but Hertford's is more like a large pub, if a bit less cosy. Actually, I'm amazed they are still touring at all!

 

[88v8]

A spring runs into our cellar, or perhaps it's a (very) old land drain. We found out when we removed the stone staircase to reface the treads, and a duck lake formed in the stairwell. The water comes into the stairwell in at least two places. We'd wondered why the stone stairs were damp.

Solution was to lay a land drain (3" perforated pipe) around the perimeter of the stairwell and lead that into a 25 gal plastic sump from which a socking great pump periodically pumps it up and away onto the flowerbed outside.
When it's been raining seriously and the ground is well soaked, the pump goes off every few mins, 20+ gallons a time.
The sump is about 2 foot square, I made a wood cover for it.

If the water is coming in in one place, as distinct from general seepage, you could do the same.
This chap did the work
http://framptonconsultants.co.uk/gallery/1781826

Just a thought.

Ivor

 

[JanJonWestWales]

Thank you feltwell, it's certainly our labour of love...the water is a problem,as it makes the whole cellar damp. Thankfully the main beam looks to have coped, but most of the joists will need replacing, and I haven't delved too deeply into the posts that support the beam yet. So I want it dryer...if not dry.
I want to use the room as a storage/ larder ( and naughty room for recalcitrant grandchildren), so a solution is required.

Thanks for the other responses....it looks like a perforated pipe solution would work.
To flyfisher ... I am intending taking up the whole floor( all the cobbles), dig down as much as I can, depending on the hardness of the shale bedrock, lay at least two pipes..one along the rear wall, where the majority of the seepage comes from, and another, up the centre of the room to capture any additional seepage.

I will take a few more pictures this weekend

Really appreciate all your comments

Finally ..anywone know of an "expert" in this topic....in South/West Wales (long shot I know)
Does gervais still frequent this site?

J

 

[mattice]

Not very helpful, but love the blog... and I have workshop envy :mrgreen:

 

[JanJonWestWales]

Not very helpful, but love the blog... and I have workshop envy :mrgreen:

Thanks Mattice....I wish i'd started the blog from the beginning, we have made so much progress. Its just a way to look back and rememeber just how much we have done.

The workshop has made such a difference, finally making the house more like a home rather than a dusty toolstore/building site/workshop/mess!!!., also somewhere I can start working on all the woodworking projects i have planned. Its also allowed me to organise my tools, so I can actually find them
The only downside...im constantly back and forth getting tools i need...a small price to pay !

 

[Penners]

I'm still amazed to have seen one of my favourite bands from my distant youth playing on the same stage that I've played many times

You're not the only big star on this forum, you know. I once appeared on the same stage as The Singing Postman, at Stowmarket Cinema!

Heady days!

 

[drpepe]

lovely house and great blog!