stuartlowb
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3061343/Dozens-firefighters-battle-blaze-18th-century-National-Trust-property-Clandon-House-Surrey.html
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jocelyn plummer
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Terrible. The pictures of destruction get worse by the minute. What will happen--it cannot ever be the same again.
JoceAndChris
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It seems from this morning's footage that it's now a shell. Absolutely devastating loss and my heart goes out to all involved. I can't imagine the horror of being a volunteer there, having to get everyone out and then thinking about what you seize of the many thousands of treasures.
The rebuild costs -priceless art treasures aside - would run into millions, and it surely isn't possible their insurance would cover it?
I know that on a vastly smaller scale if my Beacon Cottage were to be engulfed in flames and destroyed from top to toe ( my worst nightmare) the £350,000 it's insured for wouldn't begin to cover it - it would need to be insured for at least a million and I doubt we could afford the premium for that. Or, wouldn't want to afford the premium on the off chance it will be burned to a crisp!
The historic treasures that are our built heritage and our homes were made in centuries when labour was cheap and man hours were exploited. There also weren't the horrific running costs modern companies face.
The master plasterer I know who could faithfully copy the Marble Hall in Clandon Park isn't a rich man, and neither is his boss, especially. And yet one day of their time, with two lesser skilled workmen, is around £1300.
I dread to think how many days the Marble Hall would take.
http://directory.confetti.co.uk/library/image/7863/Marble%20Hall.JPG/
The rebuild costs -priceless art treasures aside - would run into millions, and it surely isn't possible their insurance would cover it?
I know that on a vastly smaller scale if my Beacon Cottage were to be engulfed in flames and destroyed from top to toe ( my worst nightmare) the £350,000 it's insured for wouldn't begin to cover it - it would need to be insured for at least a million and I doubt we could afford the premium for that. Or, wouldn't want to afford the premium on the off chance it will be burned to a crisp!
The historic treasures that are our built heritage and our homes were made in centuries when labour was cheap and man hours were exploited. There also weren't the horrific running costs modern companies face.
The master plasterer I know who could faithfully copy the Marble Hall in Clandon Park isn't a rich man, and neither is his boss, especially. And yet one day of their time, with two lesser skilled workmen, is around £1300.
I dread to think how many days the Marble Hall would take.
http://directory.confetti.co.uk/library/image/7863/Marble%20Hall.JPG/
Flyfisher
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JoceAndChris said:
Not wishing to divert this thread too much, but you should be aware of the risks of under insuring a property as it will likely result in a reduced payout in the event of a claim. In your example, if the rebuild costs really are £1m and you insure for £350k then you are only insured for 1/3rd of the risk and the insurance company will likely only pay out 1/3rd of the amount insured. This means you are actually only really insured for a maximum of about £115k. I don't think this is fair (we've discussed it before in another thread) but that's the way it works.
It can be difficult to determine a rebuilding cost for period properties. I was given a rebuild figure of £1400/m2 by our surveyor, based on total floor area (not ground footprint). This compared to £800/m2 for a 'standard' build property. The safest method is to obtain a professional valuation, though this will cost something. We're currently with Lark and they allow up to 150% of a professional valuation so under-insurance problems are very unlikely. Unfortunately, period property insurance is an expensive business at the best of times but under insurance means that the lower premiums might turn out to be wasted money in the event of a claim.
tobydog
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You just beat me to it Flyfisher. Again, not wanting to digress too far away from the thread, the following link will help.
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/under-insurance-household.html
Many insurers will hang their argument on the issue of misrepresentation at the time of taking on the risk and, had the full extent of the risk been declared at inception, they may have underwritten the risk differently with a higher premium.
Going back to the original thread, the BBC are reporting that a significant amount of the treasures were saved from the house but that still leaves an awful loss.
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/under-insurance-household.html
Many insurers will hang their argument on the issue of misrepresentation at the time of taking on the risk and, had the full extent of the risk been declared at inception, they may have underwritten the risk differently with a higher premium.
Going back to the original thread, the BBC are reporting that a significant amount of the treasures were saved from the house but that still leaves an awful loss.
plasticpigeon
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I hope it is rebuilt as a facsimilie, and at the same time providing opportunity for real craftspeople to show off their skills and also train others to achieve the necessary high standard.
JoceAndChris
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Thanks for the warning. I think the dreadful news from CP is giving me the kick in the pants to review the policy and get some professional help with rebuild costs.
Whether I'd really want a replica though, I'm not sure. It's a very draughty and deeply flawed design in many ways. We're better at building houses now, though with aesthetic compromises.
As for Clandon Park, great to hear such heroic efforts were made to save the contents. I hope we can get some specific information about what was saved and what was lost.
Heart warming to read that the NT are offering the brides who are booked in a different venue, as of course they should.
Be careful with your fires everyone and your electrical work!
Whether I'd really want a replica though, I'm not sure. It's a very draughty and deeply flawed design in many ways. We're better at building houses now, though with aesthetic compromises.
As for Clandon Park, great to hear such heroic efforts were made to save the contents. I hope we can get some specific information about what was saved and what was lost.
Heart warming to read that the NT are offering the brides who are booked in a different venue, as of course they should.
Be careful with your fires everyone and your electrical work!
JoceAndChris
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Agree. They'll need deep pockets at the NT though.plasticpigeon said:
DJH
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Once again fire destroys some of our heritage. I recall attending a meeting with the National Trust after the fires at Hampton Court, York Minster and Uppark House to discuss the effects of a proposed ‘Hot Works Ban’ on all Trust properties and how its implementation would be reflected in both increased costs and how it could be policed. A complete ban on any hot works was brought in banning the use of any heat generating equipment within 6 metres of any property although I was surprised to see an open fire blazing in a fireplace at an NT property I visited a few years ago…
The similarities with the fire at Uppark are remarkable although the fires started in different locations. At Uppark the fire started on the roof after workmen had lead welded a small corner detail on the roof and the ensuing blaze burnt its way down through the building allowing time for a good deal of the contents to be salvaged before the floors and ceilings collapsed down on top of them. In some ways this also helped preserve a lot of the detailed structure as it was compressed under debris and suffered water damage rather than destruction by fire.
It was thought at the time that the outside structure and many of the windows (those that weren't smashed by firemen who thought they were helping the salvage teams gain access by doing so :roll: ) were preserved as the fire burned up through the centre stairways which acted as a chimney.
Here the fire appears to have started in the basement and burned up through the building destroying everything in its path but the similarity with Uppark is it seems, that the outside of the building looks unscathed. This fact was a major influence in the National Trust’s decision to restore Uppark. Let’s hope they feel the same this time round with Clandon Park…
Doug
The similarities with the fire at Uppark are remarkable although the fires started in different locations. At Uppark the fire started on the roof after workmen had lead welded a small corner detail on the roof and the ensuing blaze burnt its way down through the building allowing time for a good deal of the contents to be salvaged before the floors and ceilings collapsed down on top of them. In some ways this also helped preserve a lot of the detailed structure as it was compressed under debris and suffered water damage rather than destruction by fire.
It was thought at the time that the outside structure and many of the windows (those that weren't smashed by firemen who thought they were helping the salvage teams gain access by doing so :roll: ) were preserved as the fire burned up through the centre stairways which acted as a chimney.
Here the fire appears to have started in the basement and burned up through the building destroying everything in its path but the similarity with Uppark is it seems, that the outside of the building looks unscathed. This fact was a major influence in the National Trust’s decision to restore Uppark. Let’s hope they feel the same this time round with Clandon Park…
Doug
Flyfisher
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JoceAndChris said:
I know exactly what you mean about a replica, but the problem is that the decision may not be in your hands when the property is listed.
I've heard it said that the worst case is for a listed building to half burn down, because that makes reinstatement more likely, with all the attendant costs. A total loss - i.e. a pile of smoking rubble - means that you might as well start again from scratch with a new build, which would likely be considerably cheaper - even if done to a high specification.
Anyway, I'm less concerned about that (because I'd have little choice) and more concerned about under-insurance as it's that time of year for me to renew our policy. What bugs me is that they accept my rebuild valuation but then add "You are and remain responsible for ensuring this is correct” - as if I'm supposed to be some sort of expert, which of course I'm not, so that means either over-valuing things to be safe (though still a risk) or paying an additional amount for a professional valuation.
At least we don't have any fine architectural features that would require scarce and expensive craftsmen to repair or replace. Sorting out the destruction at Clandon House is clearly going to run into tens of millions.
Flyfisher
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A report on the fire from the NT's perspective: http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/article-1355894945049/
There are also a number of photos of the damage on the National Trust facebook page.
There are also a number of photos of the damage on the National Trust facebook page.
Gareth Hughes
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It's only a month or two since the Director General of the National Trust was bemoaning the amount of "stuff" there is in NT houses...
http://www.arthistorynews.com/articles/3331_Whats_wrong_with_the_National_Trust
with a bit of luck this may be the end of that sort of rubbish.
http://www.arthistorynews.com/articles/3331_Whats_wrong_with_the_National_Trust
with a bit of luck this may be the end of that sort of rubbish.
88v8
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Went to Tyntesfield a couple of weeks ago, Gothic revival mmmmm..
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/tyntesfield/
Was afterwards emailed a questionnaire, took me about 15 mins, full of slushy options about how 'inspired' I was by my visit. Seems the NT has been hijacked by the sort of leftie liberal types who sometimes make Radio 4 so annoying, especially News & Current Affairs. I dare say as I'm white middle class they ignored my replies anyway. At least it didn't ask how many immigrants/refugees I thought they should accommodate in the house.
Very sad about Clandon. Went a few times when we lived in Surrey, even though not that enamoured of its formal architecture could still appreciate the craftsmanship.
Was surprised to read that the Brigade ran out of water, lack of planning somewhere it seems.
Ivor
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/tyntesfield/
Was afterwards emailed a questionnaire, took me about 15 mins, full of slushy options about how 'inspired' I was by my visit. Seems the NT has been hijacked by the sort of leftie liberal types who sometimes make Radio 4 so annoying, especially News & Current Affairs. I dare say as I'm white middle class they ignored my replies anyway. At least it didn't ask how many immigrants/refugees I thought they should accommodate in the house.
Very sad about Clandon. Went a few times when we lived in Surrey, even though not that enamoured of its formal architecture could still appreciate the craftsmanship.
Was surprised to read that the Brigade ran out of water, lack of planning somewhere it seems.
Ivor
plasticpigeon
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The attitudes she espouses have been applied to the museums in Birmingham. The wonderful museum of science and industry, and the old natural history museum which were full of interesting things have been reduced in size, dumbed down and made into an expensive attraction called "Thinktank" on the outskirts of the city centre, full of computer screens and bits of fur that one can touch and stroke. This move has alienated the people who are inspired by natural history and science and engineering in the vain attempt to appeal to those who would rather be playing playstation at home. It is massively patronising. I don't think it is a class issue, it's about catering for those who have imagination and are inspired by history, heritage, and learning, whatever their background.
Mmm, yes Ivor, we had similar when we recently visited Standen in East Sussex. I did fill it out, but must admit I was disinclined to......
I sincerely hope the NT doesn't *dumb down* all its properties - our most local (and favourite) is Wightwick Manor and at the moment it's perfect as it is - god forbid they change it......or worse still, a fire breaks out
Properties such a Clandon are not from our preferred period either, but we do still visit them as the beauty of the architecture, craftsmanship and artifacts cannot be denied.
Did the fire brigade really run out of water? I must have missed that. I'd always assumed in such circumstances they would drain a lake on site - or is there none at Clandon?
Mims x
I sincerely hope the NT doesn't *dumb down* all its properties - our most local (and favourite) is Wightwick Manor and at the moment it's perfect as it is - god forbid they change it......or worse still, a fire breaks out
Properties such a Clandon are not from our preferred period either, but we do still visit them as the beauty of the architecture, craftsmanship and artifacts cannot be denied.
Did the fire brigade really run out of water? I must have missed that. I'd always assumed in such circumstances they would drain a lake on site - or is there none at Clandon?
Mims x
DJH
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Another similarity to the fire at Uppark. The fire brigade ran out of water there and ran hoses from the village a few miles away if I remember correctly.
The fire there melted the newly fitted leadwork on the roof and the molten lead ran down the rainwater pipes filling them up. As there was scaffolding around the house molten lead from the cornices dripped onto the planks and splashed onto the walls. Two young ladies spent weeks if not months painstakingly picking off the spattered lead without marking the brickwork...
Help...I'm trying to upload a picture but the board is full. Someone (FF I think) once told me how to remove some attachments to make some more room but I've forgotten how...
Doug
The fire there melted the newly fitted leadwork on the roof and the molten lead ran down the rainwater pipes filling them up. As there was scaffolding around the house molten lead from the cornices dripped onto the planks and splashed onto the walls. Two young ladies spent weeks if not months painstakingly picking off the spattered lead without marking the brickwork...
Help...I'm trying to upload a picture but the board is full. Someone (FF I think) once told me how to remove some attachments to make some more room but I've forgotten how...
Doug
MatthewC
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Doug
Go to the User Control Panel (link at top of screen) and then "Manage Attachments" and delete a few old ones.
Matthew
Go to the User Control Panel (link at top of screen) and then "Manage Attachments" and delete a few old ones.
Matthew
DJH
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Thanks Matthew.
Here's a picture of one the rainwater pipes I made for Uppark held in position by Mrs DJH...
Doug
PS I didn't fit them...the bottom offset may have been a little straighter if I had... :roll:
Here's a picture of one the rainwater pipes I made for Uppark held in position by Mrs DJH...
Doug
PS I didn't fit them...the bottom offset may have been a little straighter if I had... :roll:
DJH said:Another similarity to the fire at Uppark. The fire brigade ran out of water there and ran hoses from the village a few miles away if I remember correctly.
The fire there melted the newly fitted leadwork on the roof and the molten lead ran down the rainwater pipes filling them up. As there was scaffolding around the house molten lead from the cornices dripped onto the planks and splashed onto the walls. Two young ladies spent weeks if not months painstakingly picking off the spattered lead without marking the brickwork...
Help...I'm trying to upload a picture but the board is full. Someone (FF I think) once told me how to remove some attachments to make some more room but I've forgotten how...
Doug
Yes Doug, Pip was working in Petersfield at the time (we're both from Hampshire originally and lived on the South Coast then) and he remembers water being taken from the lake there when the fire brigade ran out.
Mims x