Chimney repairs

[Anonymous]

We have a 300 year old stone and thatch cottage. There is an inglenook with an open fire in the sitting room. We've been using this quite a bit with the cold weather and had it lit the other day. Standing in the garden looking up casually at the chimney, we could see smoke leaking out through the stack near the top but also, more worryingly at the base where it passes through the thatch. We immediately extinguished the fire and checked there was no smoke coming into the roof space (the flue inside appears sound).

We now plan to have the chimney rebuilt (it's rather wonky as well as the failed mortar issue) and are wondering whether to line the chimney where it goes through the thatch as an added precaution.

Does anyone have any experience of lining (or part-lining) a chimney with a flexible liner? How, for instance is the liner secured at the top and bottom of the lined stretch, and should it be back-filled with vermiculite - and if so, how is this held in place?

Grateful for any ideas/advice out there.

 

[Anonymous]

we have just moved into a 170 year old stone property and have had the same problem - the chimney is full of holes. Our inglenook had a lovely 3 bar electric fire and a hidden strip light to give extra character (!). Anyway, we wanted a stove, and can't do any pointing until the frost has gone, and we didn't want to wait that long as we haven't any central heating either. The chimney surveyor said the pointing could wait if we had a flexible steel flue fitted and also we had the vermiculite insulation material poured down it as well. we are toasty warm now and there are no smoke leaks and we can wait to have all the holes in the mortar repointed in the spring along with the rest of the house.

You say you want the chimney rebuilt - fiendishly expensive - are you sure you don't just need repointing?

 

[Anonymous]

Here's an article to read for starters, with wider reading links at the bottom.

I'd personally avoid the pumped in systems, they are not reversible and I think that's important in an historic building.

We have the sectional ceramic type of liner in our main room, but it's not as easy to install as the flexible steel. You need to ensure that you get one suitable for solid fuel not a gas one - there have been posts in the past couple of weeks about specifications and the cheapest suppliers. Building regs will apply too, to ensure the liner installation is safe. It's more difficult where an open fire is concerned than a stove, which requires the flue blocking off with a register plate passing through it. You may in fact wish to consider a stove, which is more efficient than an open fire. We have a stove which has an open fire with doors rather than a closed stove, so we get the flames and the heat from the cast metal too.

I do know of people with open fires who have had a blacksmith fabricate a sort of upside down funnel which fits up in the gathers out of sight which the liner then fits into.

There has been publicity recently about thatch fires being more common now as people have been installing woodburning stoves and heat has tranferred from the brick where it passes through thatch, making a slow combustion which eventually bursts into flames. So it's important to line and isolate the flue, and of course consider how it can be swept in future.

Don't be tempted to light the fire until you have this all sorted!

If you can avoid rebuilding your chimney, unless it's really dangerous, then it's better conservation-wise to reapir (and if it's listed you need to talk to your CO really...) wonky isn't bad (in fact it adds to the charm) as long as it's not dangerous. If in doubt about repair give SPAB a ring - free helpline.

You are not alone - when we light our dining room fire smoke tends to pour from joints in the stack and the roof at the base of the stack - not however thatch but slate. That's another job on the list, although I think in our case some pointing in the loft and of the stone stack may cure it. In the case of thatch, you obviously can't point where the chimney passes through the thatch, which is why lining and isolating that section is so important.

I'm sure others will have advice about how they have gone about all this.


http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/article038.htm

 

[Anonymous]

Our inglenook also has a strip light for added character!

We will probably stick with the open fire and install a woodburning stove in the other inglenook which is in the dining room. This was formerly the kitchen and had a Rayburn installed, and I believe that flue is fully lined.

Not sure how much of a rebuild the chimney will need - it's got three socking great TV aeriels on it which doesn't help. Have run our plans past the CO (house is GII listed). We will have to get the thatch at the base of the chimney lifted and replaced in order to repair the base.

Still don't really understand how the joint at the end of a part-lining is managed, but will have to seek advice from our builder.

Have attached a pic of the house and the fireplace - note the attractive brick chimneypiece! And Evelyn, don't get me started on the suspended ceiling and false beams -I'm sure this will be the subject of many, many posts in the future.

 

[Anonymous]

And here's one of the back of the house too, showing the chimney in question. And the giant eucalyptus (which will have to come down by about half, if not altogether).

 

[Anonymous]

Pic of fireplace a bit dark - but it looks terrific house! Lucky you! I see what you mean about the tree... attractive but overpowering.

It's fortunate this is a gable stack - easier to deal with than a central one.

Really it's hard to say how to manage the end bit because that will depend on the chimney. Some are huge voids which go straight up to the stack, others narrow a little above the opening into what is known as the 'gathers' - presumably as smoke gathers there to be drawn up the flue. However, we've only installed stoves with stove pipes which meet a liner not as yet in an open fire with a wide flue. You may need some sort of hood or artificial 'gather' fabricating as I suggested to funnel smoke up into the chimney. If there is a narrow part then that may be the obvious place to put a register plate and attach the liner to that. However. I'm sure a builder can advise on the best way.

Don't rebuild that stack with cement <IMG SRC="http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/discussing/smileys/frown.gif" BORDER=0 ALT=""> - a weakly hydraulic lime may be probably best in this situation though.

If you can get rid of the stuff attached to the chimney so much the better - even if you attach it to the gable wall on a pole. We are down to one aeriel around a stack but I think they are damaging. The loose stack until recently had the telephone cable attached to it with a metal band and I'm sure that hasn't helped. That now is attached to the gable - it's not possible to have an underground wire.

The false beams - weeell, you can remove in time! But I'd check those downlighters - they can give off a great deal of heat into the void above.

We have a light hidden in our fireopening - but two low wattage bulbs, not a tube thing. In fact it helps make it look less dismal when the fire isn't lit.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,
We had a man round for advise regarding our chimneys,one inglenook with an open fire and another with a gas coal flame effect fire and he said the chimneys were fine and liners were not reqired(corgi registered and qualified 18 years) But having read the messages posted here we won't be making any decisions until we have had second and third opinions it does seem to be an overly complicated subject. Also:-
We live in a listed cottage in a conservation area and had to seek permission to remove a eucalyptus tree that was;nt half the size of yours this was granted the officer agreeing that the tree was not a suitable specimen even though the garden is quite large. Get several quotes for removal ours varied by some hundreds of £s.
Last but not leat can i thank those who responded to my query regarding the Chestnut Tree paticulatly Stephen.

 

[Anonymous]

A tree in the curtilage of a listed building is not protected by the listing - so permission to remove is not required, unless it has a TPO on it.

A tree in a Conservation Area needs permission for removal as CA status covers more than just the buildings, but trees, views, landscape etc. That's the theory anyhow, although local authorities don't always seem to have a clue.

This was raised at the Commons Select Committee hearing last week, see separate post and link.

 

[Anonymous]

As Evelyn has said, it's best not to rebuild your chimney if it doesn't really need it.
But... if it does need it, then it must be done. Imagine the damage that it would cause if the external stack crashed through your roof, after a particularly high wind.
I'm not convinced that just repointing is going to be a sufficient repair if the existing mortar is sufficiently failed to allow smoke to seep through the joints. So I do urge you to play safe on this. Maybe get a surveyor's view?
However, if you do have to rebuild the external stack, there's no reason why this can't be done re-using the existing masonry, with new lime mortar.
One comment about flexible liners - do beware of installing a flexible liner in a chimney that is serving an open fire. I've seen this tried twice (once by me, years ago!) and on both occasions the volume of the liner was inadequate to carry away the smoke from the fire.

 

[Anonymous]

We are currently looking at getting our chimney lined, large inglenook with canopy & log basket/grate. Have had a mixed response from chimney repairers. 1st gave lots of expensive oh's & ah's, that will cost a lot but did say he would come & look at, yet to be seen. 2nd said yep, no prob's, advised on a 200mm liner & an aspirotor fitted to the chimney to assist smoke extraction on light up until the flue had warmed, awaiting quote. 3rd said no due to prob's with draw & advised on an open log burner. Given the mixed response have contacted a 4th this morning. Immediate response was to fit an 8" liner (200mm) & will pop out next week to look at the work required. After David's post, would be interested to hear from anyone else who has had a liner fitted in combination with an open fire.

 

[Anonymous]

If you look at many flues, they are in fact not much bigger than 8", running through walls. It's all so variable - it depends really on individual fireplace design.

Fireplaces were altered and experimented with through time to aid the draw and stop smoking. In the past they would have never really allowed a chimney to go cold. Look at experiments by Count Rumford and others to restrict the 'throat' and aid the draw.

I think if you have a wide flue going up to the chimney it's important to consider the construction of some sort of 'gather'beyond the lintel to allow smoke to accumulate befire being drawn up the chimney, but chimneys are such a black art it's a bit of trial and error. Height of stack and pot all play a part.

The leaking chimney we have used to be dreadful when first lit - it's a Georgian hob grate and a straightish flue - we used to warm the flue with a fan heater and open the windows!

The pot was shorter than its neighbour and cracked. We had it replaced with one of similar height for aesthetics really. Result - the thing blazes away merrily now! Hoever. much pointing is required - it's not really used enough to warrant lining I think.

In a previous house the chimney was dangerous (all mortar gone and there had been a fire) and we couldn't get a match for some bricks. The builder suggested that he reduce the height by one course.

Result - a chimney which uised to cause no problems at all refused to draw, the room filled with smoke until the flue was really warm...

Regarding chimney fans - they can be noisy, so they may help initially but I wouldn't recommend one for full time use.

I had a 'private view' of a splendid Georgian (Grade I) house rescued from real dereliction. While admiring the plasterwork and joinery I also stuck my head up the chimneys. A steel canopy had been made to fit which acted as a 'gather' which then was connected to a pipe liner. Seemed to work.

 

[Anonymous]

We'll be fitting a liner where the flue goes through the thatch in the inglenook with the open fire (rather than the whole length which would be impractical). We thought we were OK to fit a woodburning stove in the other inglenook on the basis that there had been a Rayburn fitted there and that the flue was already lined. However, the existing flue liner is just under 4" in diameter and the man at the stove shop said we would have to have a 5" liner installed in order to deal adequately with the flue gases. However, he then went on to says that Building Regs now stipulate a minimum diameter of 6", so I'm not sure why 5" is deemed to be the norm. Will post on progress with both projects.