Chimney Lining

[Moneypit]

First post virgin - be gentle please

We have open fires in every room of our house, 1880s 3 storey end terrace. Our neighbour has complained of smoke smells in their middle floor bedroom when our ground floor, party wall, fire is lit.

We love the fire so will go to some lengths to remedy the problem. Having searched the forum a bit and had someone round to look at it, it looks like we may have to spend quite a bit for our pleasures. Most common solution seems to be cast in liner but the chap who came to look at it suggested we look at the "Eldfast" technique which from tinterweb searching is a smeared coating on the brickwork surface. This has the advantage of maintaining most of the chimney cross sectional area, currently about 10" x 10". The fireplace is large and open with a dog grate so ratio of flue to opening important here.

Question is - Does anyone have any experience of this method? Only guide to cost so far is from a 2002 internet article which quoted £98/metre. At that price our 36' flue would be around £1000.

 

[Nemesis]

Oooh - the technique looks interesting, but I wonder about the material!

Why can't it be adapted to lime as was used originally?

I agree though - don't go the pumped liner route - not reversible and who knows what can happen in the future.

 

[MdB]

I'm also interested in any answers to this. I'm also thinking about lining our chimney as we want a fire but the wall is so full of holes the smoke would go everywhere.

What are the options for lining? What is a pumped liner? What other ways can it be done?

(oh and moneypit, one of the dangers of posting here is other buggers come along and nick your thread )

 

[Nemesis]

Nonsense! When have we ever gone off topic?

I wonder though about this material, and if it can adapt to house movement. I have not heard of it until now, although I recall something similar as a technique on a US site I found ages ago.

The alternative is a stainless liner pushed down, which at least is reversible. Or indeed a sectional ceramic, but that does require some dismantling in places to install.

The 'pumped' liners I personally would not really consider as first choice - not for a historic building. Too irreversible. It may be OK if they would do it in lime though!

Try a google for CICO for details.

 

[andrew gayton]

flexi liner - best way to go.

 

[Penners]

Before you spend a lot of money on some sort of flue lining, have you considered the possibility that a downdraught might be carrying your smoke down your neighbour's half of the chimney?

Do the two flues converge, or are they discrete all the way up to the top of the stack? (If you're not sure, count the chimney pots). If they converge, then this reverse flow is a possibility. If they don't, then it's less likely but still not completely impossible.

Do the neighbours use their bedroom fireplace? If not, then you might try stuffing a temporary blockage up their chimney, to see whether this stops the smell. The best thing would something like a Chimney Balloon, which gives a complete seal, but if that's too costly just for a try-out, just get the best seal you can.

It may come to nothing, but it's worth checking before you write a sizeable cheque.

 

[Nemesis]

Yes - meant to say that. If the smell and smoke aren't there all the time it's a possibility. It happens in our house at times, when smoke is drawn down from the outside pot from the living room fire into the bedroom above via the pot for that fire.

Best thing is to get a proper smoke test done, which may cost in the short term but save cash in the long term.

I very much suspect though that the mortar between the two adjacent flues has perished, causing smoke to migrate from one flue to another, and hence down into the room where there is no fire lit.

 

[andrew gayton]

I very much suspect though that the mortar between the two adjacent flues has perished, causing smoke to migrate from one flue to another, and hence down into the room where there is no fire lit.

also, you may find that the withies are laid brick on edge..... mortar and parging burn out, chimney sweeping dislodges brick......


different sized pots will cure downdraught.... although on a shared terrace stack of up to 8 pots, this can be a problem....

 

[Nemesis]

Now listen you - we had new matching pots fitted, don't cause complications!

Also with a lowered pot there was no draught and even more smoke. Stuffing something up the flue (which goes straight up being Georgian) will help but at the mo that room isn't in use apart from a junk store.

 

[MdB]

My chimney is of stone rubble + mud construction and has leaks all over the place. I don't like the idea of the pumped linear as movement will cause it to crack.

I had assumed that the best / easiest solution was to drop a flexible linear down the chimney:

Is this a good solution? Are there any other solutions available?

 

[Penners]

A flexible liner can be a solution, if your chimney is big enough.

In a past house, I made the mistake of putting a 6in. dia. flexible liner down the chimney (this was the maximum size th Victorian chimney would take on one of its dimensions). I made a nice register plate with a collared hole for the liner to attach to, installed the whole lot and - with a self-satisfied smirk - lit a fire.

The whole room was soon full of smoke.

So, I can say with empirical authority that a 6in liner ain't big enough.

By the way, this wasn't a big fire - it was a typical Victorian fieplace.

 

[andrew gayton]

did you then plumb in a woodburner??

 

[Nemesis]

Did you also not have any 'gathers'? Smoke needs to be funelled.

 

[Penners]

did you then plumb in a woodburner??

No, I gave up (oh, the shame!). Anyway, there wouldn't have been room for a woodburner - it was a Victorian fireplace. Quite small.

The fireplace was in a seldom-used dining room, so we just stuck a pot of dried flowers in the grate and ate in the kitchen!

Did you also not have any 'gathers'? Smoke needs to be funelled.

I'm not sure what a "gather" is, but I made the register plate in the shape of a cone, with a collar at the top for the liner to join up to.

 

[Nemesis]

It may have been that your cone wasn't the right shape or too small of course, or indeed six inches just isn't man sized enough for the job.

 

[Penners]

six inches just isn't man sized enough for the job.

Oh, Grimmers - where art thou?

 

[Nemesis]

I'm sure Brunhilde would have confirmed that.

 

[Moneypit]

Well, thank you all for your comments.

We have been thinking that an initial trial with a steel flexible liner would be worthwhile but the reduction in csa for the fire opening we have would probably be too much, as Penners found to his dismay. Even the liner would be a fair cost as the length required would be 36ft.

We have sent a CCTV camera up, attached to the boss of a sweep brush, and found that after an initial 45deg slope out of the fireplace it is a single vertical run of constant csa. No obvious damage internally but the parging looks fairly suspect throughout. During the exercise with the brush it is noticeable that mortar granules as well as soot come raining down.

It is a single flue, not merging with any other. The stack has 4 pots, 3 of which are ours. Need to speak to the neighbours and find out whether their one pot is for a middle floor or top floor room. We are on good terms with them, which is quite surprising considering that within a week of moving in last May we nearly burned their house down (and ours) through some over zealous use of a heat gun to the painted fascia boards. That exercise did prove that our scaffolding was robust enough to support four fireman + hose along with me and galvanised bucket!

The following week during some high winds one of the boards came off the top scaff level and landed on the Rosemary tiled porch roof over their front door. Apparently he wasn't surprised, being the mid terrace it had also happened when the other side had scaff too.

I have today spoken to the suppliers of the Eldfast method, a company called Landyvent in Warwickshire. I am now awaiting a call from a more local installer to arrange to come and quote. Guide price is apparently about £120/metre. Pricey but cheaper than the quote that arrived in the post today for a 200mm flex liner, positioned at intervals by breaking into the breast, and backfilled with vermiculite. That came to £2500. What sort of dried flowers do you think would be best Penners?

On a final note (for now), I can recommend these CCTV cameras. The one used was only £50, uses infra red lights when light conditions are low and plugs directly into a tv. Aldi are also selling a similar one that operates wirelessly which I was playing with last night. Word of warning with those though because if you're lucky (or possibly unlucky) you can also pick up a signal from someone elses within around 200m. A "Graham's Top Tip" would then be "Be careful what you use yours for!"

 

[Penners]

What sort of dried flowers do you think would be best Penners?

Anything with black spots on the petals. (You'll find out why when you have your first fall of soot).

 

[Tina Ruffle]

We just lined our chimney a few weeks ago - similar to illustration...

We have a flexible liner with an insulating jacket - to prevent overheating and previously smoky chimney from starting to smell.

In all we bought just over 7 m - part was rigid- the visible bit. Cost £750 - the flexible liner is around £50 a metre. The insulating jacket was nearly as dear....

We've a 6 inch liner - and had no problem at all with smoke or anything - but we are linked up to a woodburning stove. Plus the chimney is massive.

And you don't need to drop it down - we pushed it up. It was all quite simple and easy to do.