Changing the internal structure

[BGD]

Hi all, first post on this board and a lot to engage with!

I'd like to call on someone's knowledge if I may. I am hoping to buy a Victorian property in Kent but can't do so without making some changes to the layout inside architecturally and would like to see where this has been carried out in similar circumstances before if possible. Not sure whether that suggestion is heresy to some of you, guess I may find out!

Anyway, I wonder if there's anywhere I might look online (or here? - can't find) to see where others have made changes to similar properties without drastically altering the overall structure?

Background: The property is a semi-detached with 3 floors one of which is a lower ground / semi-basement. It's quite a narrow building but with the expected high ceilings.

The sitting room is where you would expect on the ground floor by the front door (after the hall) and is OK sized but next to it at the back is a tiny room currently used as a very cramped dining room and behind this is what I assume is an (old slate roofed) extension that is single storey and houses the bathroom (and also has some very obvious damp issues).

The kitchen is downstairs on the lower ground floor(facing the back) next to what is currently the main bedroom (facing the front) - which is not ideal due to ventilation, smells etc as well as being quite dark.

On the first floor are three medium to small rooms used as bedrooms for the current owner's children.

Hence trying to see how I can open open up the space a little without changing it from what it is into something else.

The local area is perfect and the external structure is lovely so trying to compromise a little and see where tweaks can be made. Otherwise it's likely to be an Edwardian in a less preferred location or waiting on another property in this area with a likely 100% increase in the sale price from this current consideration..

Options to me seem to be putting an arch or similar into wall between sitting / dining room. Swapping kitchen with bathroom or perhaps digging out the back of the kitchen downstairs, putting in some steps and larger window to make it lighter and changing master bedroom on lower ground floor into a dining area. Perhaps even putting in a loft conversion..

WE need three bedrooms at the moment and four eventually..(I currently work from home mostly so need an office plus three additional bedrooms, two at a pinch).

Any directions to previous architectural genius or shenanigans much appreciated!

Ben

 

[JoceAndChris]

Hence trying to see how I can open open up the space a little without changing it from what it is into something else.

Sorry Ben this won't be what you want to hear.

Your above sentence is a complete contradiction.

I feel very strongly that properties should be preserved, not mucked around with. I hate it when people knock their living rooms and dining rooms together. It doesn't sound like your house is listed, if it was, my guess is that you would find it difficult if not impossible to make the changes you require.

We live in a very old house with lots of little rooms and a kitchen in the cellar. I balance dishes precariously and carry our dinner up to the formal dining room. We choose to adapt to the old house, not make it adapt to us.

If you buy an unlisted building then you become the guardian of its history. I think many people on this forum would agree with the view that your moral responsibilty is to preserve and restore.

Why don't you look for something that meets your needs rather than smashing up a historic building? Can't see property prices going up any time soon, they will probably fall still more.

 

[Penners]

Ben - the common interest of people on this forum is the conservation of period properties, so I'm afraid it may not be the best place to seek sympathetic advice for your plans.

I'm also doubtful whether you'll find anyone - on any forum - who could give you any useful guidance on the basis of a verbal description. It seems to me that the only way for anyone to offer any advice is for them to visit the house.

Please don't regard our responses as a banishment! If you need to discuss any aspect of your property, do ask for further advice. I'm sure people will be glad to try and help... except for encouraging you to destroy historic fabric.

 

[Carol]

I am sure this will be a contentious comment, but in my view, unless your house is a particularly special Victorian semi, or in a Conservation area, I should have thought a few alterations in room layout to improve 21C. living would be reasonable. Most of these semis were built in such large quantities that yours is unlikely to have the last example of anything and while it would be nice to consider the style and substance of Victorian architecture, you should not be too paranoid.

Find out if it's listed first. And please don't think of putting in UPVC even if its not!

And welcome to the forum, it is a mine of useful information. But I will probably be excommunicated by the Victorian Soc. for heresy!

 

[Flyfisher]

Wholesale changes to a property, particularly an historic one, will always be a contentious subject. I suppose it's a question of degree. The house in question doesn't seem very suitable for your needs (fair enough) and will require quite a lot of internal remodelling to make it suitable, so is it - or the location - really that special to warrant all that work (and cost)?

Having said that, I agree with Penners that it's very difficult to make suggestions without being able to see the property. I guess you'll need some plans drawn up at some stage so it's probably a good idea to talk with an architect fairly early on, at the house. If you talk in terms of what you want to achieve rather than be too specific about making specific changes you may find they can suggest alternative ideas that would work just as well as your current thoughts.

Do you know if the neighbouring houses have been heavily remodelled? It might be helpful if you could talk to the neighbours and see how they have adapted (or not) to their layouts. It's also a good excuse to try to meet your potential neighbours.

 

[BGD]

Thanks for the responses. I hear you and do feel the same regarding serious renovation.

In my defence I would say that that I am not intending structurally to do that much - an archway or double door opening, a larger window at the back on the lower ground level (in keeping) and maybe the digging out of the surrounding garden by a few feet. Much later possibly an attic conversion.

On a cod-philosophical level I guess that the past meets the future and goes on together in tandem. I remember the furore with Prescott’s department levelling thousands of homes in northern England to replace them with modern boxes when they could have been made agreeable for another hundred years with small alterations to the original property.

For god and ill the building is not listed: the current owners have put PVC type windows at the front with fake leaded and stained glass elements – absolutely hideous. So in some areas we will be restoring what has been lost should we go ahead. Inside pink walls meet bright blue carpets and the like. Hence the affordability and our potential willingness to have a project, turn the clock back a little here, slightly forward there.

Anyway, I agree with most of the comments - to a point - just trying also to be pragmatic and get some 'vision' of what could change. Thanks again.

 

[Feltwell]

Before anyone condemns changes too quickly, bear in mind that what is there now may well not all be original anyway. I'm seriously thinking of taking part of a wall out to make my incredibly narrow family bathroom a little bigger, and in doing so making our en-suite a little smaller. Neither room would have been used for that purpose originally, and I think it can be done without changing the character of the house at all - when done I think you'd struggle to tell it will have been changed, and doesn't affect anything outside those 2 rooms. A totally insensitive and inappropriate change, or a logical change if done carefully to make the house more practical to live in? Your opinion, but bathing 2 small children together in the current bathroom is very difficult!

You mention putting a larger window in, is this on the single storey section? Adding a roof window would be easier and more sensitive than enlarging a current window I would have thought - avoid the modern Velux type, you can get good replicas of Victorian originals that meet modern building regs - I've fitted an extra one in my attic office, a fairly easy job and they do let in a lot of light relative to their size.

http://www.therooflightcompany.co.uk/replica/

 

[BGD]

You mention putting a larger window in, is this on the single storey section? Adding a roof window would be easier and more sensitive than enlarging a current window I would have thought - avoid the modern Velux type, you can get good replicas of Victorian originals that meet modern building regs - I've fitted an extra one in my attic office, a fairly easy job and they do let in a lot of light relative to their size.

http://www.therooflightcompany.co.uk/replica/

Not unless we swapped the kitchen from downstairs to the slot currently occupied by the ground floor bathroom Feltwell. In that case that option would make a lot of sense as you don't expect to have abundant light in the bathroom I'd say and it could live happily on the lower ground floor as an almost en-suite.

Thanks for the link.

 

[CHRIS]

I would first check if the house is listed or in a conservation area and then the only thing to stop you is money!!

You see 1000s of Victorian semis in various standards of conversion, some like these trendy glass walled places on Grand designs to these places in E London that have been turned into 3 bedsits and have 9 Latvians living in them.

The main problem is the standard of finish, some places look great but in a few years there are cracks everywhere due to the addition of gypsum plaster and plaster board, so think long and hard about where you will spend the money.

I am under the impression that the quality of housing stock in this country is on the decline, this is including many listed buildings as most people dont realy care what they do as they see a house as a cash cow and only care about "adding value" - just like on the telly!! I would not be too precious about if you have the correct molding, light switches or skirtings etc but do a proper job and do a quality job using good quality materials. This will provide you with a good quality family home for many years and will last another 100 if maintained properly.

Be careful of the party wall agreement and get on the good side of any neighbours before any work starts as that can make your life hell.

Remember anything is posible but at a cost and always employ proffesionals!!!

 

[butterfly]

Hi, as your building is not listed all you have go do is get planning permission, which shouldn't be too difficult. I have lived in listed buildings all my life, and can only say that wherever you live, you get a different response, depending solely on the Listed buildings officer. I knocked down a dividing wall in one, but was not allowed to in another area. You really are dealing with one persons 'opinion'. I've known people who have been refused permission to remove the most ugly 70's structure, simply because it was 'listed'. So what! Does that mean that ideas and style and improvement must stop in the 1970's? We know what a disastrous period that was - with councils knocking down everything in site.