Chancel Liability

[jocelyn plummer]

Ugh-- this conveyancing lark is driving me up the wall. My Solicitor has thrown up a Chancel Liability for the property we are STILL trying to buy. The Parish boundary seems to throw itself far around our Market Town!

Anyway, our Vendor's Solicitors have been requested to make an allowance from the purchase price to cover the £63 fee.

My question is: why didn't the Vendor's Solicitor find the liability when she purchased the property in 2005?

The Solicitors for a property we tried to buy earlier this year, told mine that he is being pedantic and refused to agree to an allowance.

I am beginning to wonder whether this is all a scam, but I do realise that one is backed against the wall, damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Fortunately the premium hardly breaks the bank!

 

[Pford75]

Jocelyn - My father is a conveyancing solicitor and we discussed the matter of Chancel liabilities on a purchase which fell through before purchasing our current property.

Apparently, this has only become a hot issue with solicitors recently (in the past few years) because there were several high profile cases where clauses were used to force householders to contribute to the cost of church reconstruction. (There were very few cases of these having been used prior to that). Some of these cases then resulted in the householders suing their solicitors for not having pointed this out to them and there were some sizeable settlements (including one out of court in my fathers practice)

As with all professional services, different people have different attitudes to risk (my accountant used to insist on the strictest interpretation of the rules, whereas my current one treats it more as 'guidance').

Not knowing the specifics of your clause, it is difficult to form a view...but in the case I refer to above, the householder was forced to contribute 25% of the cost of roof repairs on a church (apx cost £40k). So, I would suggest that he is not being pedantic in raising the matter...but that for the sake of the sale £63 might be a sensible investment.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Thank you Peter, for answering my query. I suspcted that Chancel liability must be a more recent 'hot topic,' as it has occurred twice since we started house hunting in May.

Strangely enough our previous address in the Holy Land did not have one, despite my Solicitor's ( same one) careful enquiries!

I whole heartedly agree with paying the insurance premium so that's not going to be an issue.

 

[Penners]

Joss - a few months ago (before our sale fell through) we were trying to buy a house that possibly carried a chancel liability. Our solicitor told us that, however slim the chances of that liability becoming fact, we really should insure against it (or get the vendors to do so for us).

As Peter has pointed out, it's the solcitor's job to highlight such issues, even if only to protect his/her own bottom!

And, as you say, £63 isn't really worth getting into too much of argument about. But on the outside chance of your being hit for several thousands of pounds, it's worth the small outlay, even if your vendor flatly refuses to pay.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Yes,I will pay up if the Vendor does not----- how many bottles of gin will that sacrifice----- :lol:

 

[Nemesis]

A bit of reading:

http://www.peterboroughdiocesanregistry.co.uk/chancels.html

http://www.chancel.org.uk/


However, we have had long discussions over this in the past and there still seemed to be doubt about the validity of any insurance in certain cases.

The Wallbanks took their case as far as possible - and eventually lost. So this has become a hot issue in recent times.

Chancel Repair Liability
Future Chancel repair liabilities?
Thankfully, the Government have intervened and a Transitional Provisions Order was made which came into effect on the 13th October 2003. This order effectively means that ALL chancel repair obligations will cease on the 13th October 2013 unless a the chancel of any Church has noted their interest in any particular property or land with the land registry before this date.
Unfortunately this legislation means that the likely hood of a claim and liability being noted with the inland revenue as Churches will look to either protect their interests or 'cash' in now on any liabilities.

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, it's the deadline for the Church to register any liabilities that has resulted in the raised profile of this issue. FWIW, we went ahead with a check on our property and no liability was found, and it's a small amount to pay in the grand scheme of things - annoying though it may be.

I did read somewhere that the actual liability is to ensure the chancel is weatherproof. If that's really true then I would suggest that a decent tarpaulin and would meet that liability while the church saved up its own funds for a £40k (or whatever) rebuild of the roof. I wish I could find the source of that article.

Some interesting reading, from the church, here: http://www.stedmundsbury.anglican.org/pages/admin/buildings/Chancel_Repair.pdf

 

[Nemesis]

I think the Aston Cantlow case raised the profile initially, the rest came after.

http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=20658


http://www.grumpyoldsod.com/chancel%20repairs.asp

 

[Penners]

how many bottles of gin will that sacrifice

On the contrary, it'll save you innumerable bottles of gin - all the ones you would drink if you suddenly found that you had to cough up several tens of thousands pounds for reroofing the church.

 

[KayW]

We bought the old vicarage so a chancel check was a must. However beware the Co that sell the insurance say it is cheaper to pay the insurance premium then pay for the check that includes going back into the churches parish records and takes several weeks. The problem is, if i remember correctly, that the insurance has a limit on payout - so if there was a large request form the church you would still be liable for any extra. We had the intial check done, which cost about £25 i think, this came up as a 'possibly' and then we paid about £150 for the full check rather then take the insurance. As we are 100 yds from the church, partly norman and requiring some work, this was important for us. Apparently the church records included a list of the propoerties that would contribute a certain proportion of the upkeep costs. So any liabililty would always be for a stated proportion. Hope this helps.

 

[Nemesis]

I also seem to recall that if you do find a liability then really you have to inform the insurers... who may not be keen to insure.

 

[GeoffP]

Nemesis, I’d just like to thank you for the link to “GOS” Never enjoyed a site so much, it’s me down to a tee.

Thanks a lot.

Geoff

 

[Nemesis]

I think maybe you and my OH would get on well then... :roll:

However - don't click on this link if you are easily offended, or have problems with blood pressure, but it does have some tangential connection to this site I suppose:

http://www.grumpyoldsod.com/******%20of%20the%20week.asp

 

[Penners]

As we are 100 yds from the church, partly norman and requiring some work

Interesting - I'm half a mile from the church and partly Cornish - but I also require a substantial amount of work. :wink:

 

[KayW]

 

[jocelyn plummer]

There is some really good reading on those sites. Thank you for sharing them. With Eccelesiastical Buildings getting into various states of disrepair, property
liability is certainly not something to disregard.

Interestingly, my esteemed Father-in Law always used to say that there is 'no such thing as a poor Farmer or Church'!!--- things have changed I fear.

 

[AMc]

Hmm I live in a former Glebe Cottage opposite one church that shares its grounds with another former church - I wonder if I want to start looking into this

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Hmm I live in a former glebe cottage opposite one church that shares its grounds with another former church - I wonder if I want to start looking into this

Ah, one of my wagepayers, I think. I don't recall other residents of xxxxxxxx posting here before, but now I can make your life a misery :twisted:

 

[AMc]

Yes, we do contribute to your wages. I don't see any reason why you'd want to "make my life a misery" (no listing, we're not in the Broadland conservation bit) but it's nice to know so many of you are 'local' and

 

[Penners]

...and?

I can't stand the suspense!