Cement render

[Jellyfire]

Hi, this is my first post so please be gentle with the me!

We're in the process of buying a grade II Clay Lump Thatched Cottage. The structural surveyor has come back and is saying that he is concerned that the external render is cement based. He cant be certain though so he's suggested we get a sample taken. The vendors say they cant remember as it was so long ago (about 8 years), but they did it in conjuction with mid suffolk council so they say it should be fine, though they have no paperwork to this effect (hmm!). Im trying to contact the CO to see if they have any records of this

My question is should our fears be confirmed, does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to remove the cement render and and fix it (lime render?), as this will be something we would need to negotiate the cost on.

thanks in advance
Lee

 

[AMc]

Hi, this is my first post so please be gentle with the me!

Welcome!

My question is should our fears be confirmed, does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to remove the cement render and and fix it (lime render?), as this will be something we would need to negotiate the cost on.
thanks in advance
Lee

You need to get this confirmed as cement render on lump is not a good combination. You would certainly want to negotiate on price if it does need removing. I would hope that no one would have given Listed Building Consent for a cement render in the last 8 years but without documentation I wouldn't take it on trust.

DIY it will take a lot of time, effort, energy and some money. Professionally it will take time, energy and quite a lot money. The amounts will depend on how much there is to remove, how easy access is etc.
In the mean time, if you're serious about the house then I would contact local contractors experienced in lime rendering/plastering and get them to quote. I would also be wary that if it's been cement rendered in the last 8 years there may be unsympathetic materials in use elsewhere that may lead to damp problems.

 

[Pford75]

Welcome - I second all of the grat advice above.

It's also not safe to assume that just because the vendor says they did things in association with the council, that this was the case. On a property we nearly bought before this one, the vendors claimed they had discussed all their changes (and there were many) with the CO....by chance, we happened to contact them regarding some changes we were considering and it became apparent that he had never even visited the house!

Don't forget that if you purchase the house with unauthorised changes, you become liable...not the previous owners. I would be stunned if a CO permitted rendering with cement-based render....so if that's indeed what it is, you should tread carefully

 

[Flyfisher]

As above, contacting the CO is the first thing to do. They will have records of any permissions granted on the property. I also agree it's unlikely they would have given permission to use a cement render, but that doesn't mean whoever did the work didn't use it anyway (and even, perhaps, that the vendors didn't know either). Meanwhile, do have the existing render tested. If it turns out to be cement, get two or three estimates for replacing it with an approved lime-based render (the CO should be able to advise on this) and deduct the cost from your offer price.

Thank goodness you seem to have a surveyor who properly understands old properties.

 

[Jellyfire]

Thanks all, have spoken to the CO and LBC was given, so its looking likely that it wasn't done using cement, but as Fly fisher pointed out theres nothing to say the builders didnt just use it anyway so I think we'll get a sample taken and tested to make sure.

A full structural survey on a 17th Century house is 30 pages of sheer terror! Don't know what we're letting ourselves in for but think its going to be an intersting journey!

 

[Flyfisher]

It's worth asking for a copy of the LBC. It might well specify the render formulation that should have been used. It will also give you a good idea of the sort of documentation you'll need to submit if/when you wish to make any changes of your own - assuming the sale goes though of course.

A full structural survey on a 17th Century house is 30 pages of sheer terror!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
That sentence will certainly strike a chord with lots of people on here. But, as a builder once said to me, "there's nothing that can't be fixed, it's only a question of money and we can put a man on the moon if you have enough of it". In my case - and umpteen others on here - I'm trading money for time, so the only question for me is whether I'll run out of time before everything is fixed. But even if I do, at least I'll be passing our house on to the next owner in a better state than when we took it on, which is really what it's all about.

Anyway, welcome to the madhouse that is PP ownership. Please stick around and let us know how things progress. Not only can you get some good advice here, from real professionals as well as owners who've been though thick and thin, but you'll also find reassurance that whatever horrors you might encounter, there are people out there that have endured the same, maybe worse, and have still prevailed.

Good luck with the purchase!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Poor Jellyfire, I feel for you as we bought a cement rendered property without knowing the first thing about it. Crossing fingers that yours is lime, but, if it's cement, the quotes we had to remove cement render and rerender in lime on a detached 4 bed house ranged from 15 -25 k.

 

[Jellyfire]

it's only a question of money and we can put a man on the moon if you have enough of it

We're not going to have enough money left to put a man on a ladder!

The render issue apart, everything else can wait until time allows. After scouring the forums here Ive already been mentally applying klingstrip to a the photographs on the property details...so thats probably the next year or so accounted for! Will all be worth it when we move in Im sure, and as a first time buyer of any house let alone a period one Im sure I'll be begging advice on a regular basis!

Crossing fingers that yours is lime, but, if it's cement, the quotes we had to remove cement render and rerender in lime on a detached 4 bed house ranged from 15 -25 k.

Thats perfect thank you, at least I have a general idea of what kind of figures we'll be talking about, were 4 bed detached too so thats probably as good an indication as we need at this point

thanks
Lee

 

[yamin]

No advice but welcome to the forum and good luck!

 

[AMc]

7th Century house is 30 pages of sheer terror! Don't know what we're letting ourselves in for but think its going to be an intersting journey!

That sounds pretty lightweight to me - I don't have it to hand but our full building survey was more than that and mostly related specifically to our house.
It's worth going through the report with a separate bit of paper, making a note of anything you don't understand or would like clarification on then calling the surveyor with your questions.
Mine was very happy to expand verbally on the report and gave me advice he wasn't able to put in writing because of liability.

I only wish I'd got proper quotes for the work before we committed to buy as I would have made a much lower offer.

 

[Jellyfire]

Thanks AMc, actually having sat down and read it all properly last night its actually not as bad as first feared, most of it is fairly superficial stuff and the vendors have actually done some of the work since the surveyor was there last week. Possibly Im just being blinded my love for th eproerty though!

 

[FamilyWiggs]

A very warm welcome!

 

[DaveBrigg]

I removed our cement render over a period of a couple of months and took it round to a nearby farm which needed hardcore. Two coats of lime render came in at just under £3,500, plus two weeks hire of a scaffold platform. Materials were bought separately (a tonne of lime and several tonnes of sand) and came to about £1,000. It's worth shopping around, and doing the unskilled work yourself.

 

[Jellyfire]

Right, update time. The vendors have found the original receipt from the builders which states that a a render of sand, cement and lime was used

We've asked a couple of specialists lime plasterers from the PP directory to quote for removing the current render which contains cement, and rerender. One of them who was very helpful has suggested that if money is an issue (isnt it always!) we could just remove and re-render the bottom metre or so. This sounds like a reasonable enough suggestion to me as presumably this would let the most vulnerable part of the house breathe. Just wondered if anybody had any experience in doing this or heard of doing it before?

Its pretty unlikley the vendors will be able to knock the cost of doing the full house from the asking price and would probably just stay put, so were pretty keen on finding a solution

 

[yamin]

I've heard of this before. I suspect that this is a cost proposition much more likely to be acceptable to the vendors. Its an interesting question of course whether or not the vendors are morally obliged to drop the cost of doing remedial work off the cost of the house. One could argue that of course, and both parties are free to walk away, but in reality its quite harsh to expect a family who want to move out to cover the whole cost of repairs they won't see the benefit of, especially if you are already getting the house more cheaply than the asking price (don't know if this is true for you) - I think you are far more likely to get half of a reasonable proposition, than even a small portion of an unreasonable one, do you see what I mean?

As I said above, I have heard before that removing the render to a metre might be an acceptable solution to the problem. By the way, is it causing a problem? Not ideal I know, but are there any problems with damp? You may have said and i haven't looked back, sorry. If no immediate problem, may be this is something that you do negotiate money towards, but then you can sit on it for a while until you decide whether you want to go the whole hog for proper restoration purposes, or 'half hog' to prevent damp problems. With a large budget job like this, I think a half hog is thoroughly justified!

Sorry not more expert help, but there's plenty of that'll be along in a minute! Good luck

 

[Gervase]

Removing a 'drip strip' at the bottom can indeed help as a pro tem way of arresting disaster but do have a care as it's not unknown for lump/cob/clom to become a virtual slurry if trapped behind cement render and plaster.
If any builder suggests doing that, make sure you remove a small trial patch first. Robin Oxley's excellent book on conservation has a very salutary picture of a building that collapsed when the lower levels of render were removed, allowing the inside of the wall to flow messily and expensively into the surrounding grounds, bringing the house down (literally).

 

[Jellyfire]

By the way, is it causing a problem? Not ideal I know, but are there any problems with damp? You may have said and i haven't looked back, sorry. If no immediate problem, may be this is something that you do negotiate money towards, but then you can sit on it for a while until you decide whether you want to go the whole hog for proper restoration purposes, or 'half hog' to prevent damp problems.

Hi, there are no damp problems that have shown up on the survey, overall the property is in very good condition, the vendors had the rendering done 14 years ago (not 6 as we first thought!), so presuming it hasn't caused a problem yet then you may be right in that we could sit on it for a while. (My worry for that would be it could end up being one of those jobs that never gets done and eventually causes major problems!) At this point it would be more about keeping the house sound than having lime render to be historically accurate...

Which brings me onto another point that hadnt occurred to me, wonder whether we'd get consent for doing just 1 metre of rerendering???!

I think you are far more likely to get half of a reasonable proposition, than even a small portion of an unreasonable one, do you see what I mean?

Agree with you on the cost to the vendors, though they have found a property and want to move quickly, and this one had been on the market for a year so they are very keen for the sale to go through, we already got it at well below asking price, but at very top of our budget, so neither party has much spare I dont think.

 

[Jellyfire]

Thanks Gervase, forgot to say earlier the surveyor came to the conclusion only part of the extension was clay lump, he was unsure what the rest was due to lack of access to the frame, but there were some parts that were wattle and daub

 

[MdB]

Removing a 'drip strip' at the bottom can indeed help as a pro tem way of arresting disaster but do have a care as it's not unknown for lump/cob/clom to become a virtual slurry if trapped behind cement render and plaster.
If any builder suggests doing that, make sure you remove a small trial patch first. Robin Oxley's excellent book on conservation has a very salutary picture of a building that collapsed when the lower levels of render were removed, allowing the inside of the wall to flow messily and expensively into the surrounding grounds, bringing the house down (literally).

Mike Wye tells exactly the same story.

He also states that it is his standard practice to knock a few small holes at the base of cement clad cob before doing any other work. He says it isn't unusual for a large amount of water to come out.