Cellar walls - Advice please

[GRADE_II_MONEYPIT]

I have a Grade II listed house with a small brick cellar. One wall is quite ornate with decorative brick corbels and cheese recesses. One wall is partial earth and cobbles. The problem is the vandalism of the last 20 years, modern gypsum plaster was applied by previous owners that has now been removed and over the last 15 months the room has really improved most notably the earth wall section has gone from a strong smelling and physically wet material to dry. The cellar has good ventilation and no water ingress. My plan was to plaster with lime and have quite a reasonable quote to do this, but.....another lime plastering company says it will not work and the cellar must be tanked first (Im very scepitical of any modern system in a period home), they say lime paster below ground level does not allow wall to breathe in the same way as above ground level? any advice would really help as I want to do what is best not cheapest. Thanks

 

[masochists-r-us]

Whilst I understand the arguments in favour of tanking cellars, you have now enjoyed a completely dry cellar for 15 months and during one of the wettest Summers on record. I fail to see why lime plastering the walls now will suddenly create a damp problem which doesn't currently exist. Or am I missing something?

 

[plasticpigeon]

I'm no expert, and know little about cellars, but logical thinking dictates that lime plaster will behave the same way above and below ground. If they said it wasn't appropriate and why I might give the advice more credence, but the idea that it will change its properties depending on position sounds like nonsense to me. Also, I have found to my horror after chipping bonding plaster of a chimney breast how incredibly difficult it is to remove or make changes where modern materials are used, where as lime and more traditional materials are much easier to remove and make alterations with. If you get your cellar tanked and it messes things up you will have an impossible task reversing the process, if you get it plastered in lime and it doesn't work, you'll have wasted some money and learned something, but it won't be irreversible!!!!

 

[Flyfisher]

What are you intending to use the cellar space for?

If you wish to use it as living space then that might be a reason for the tanking suggestion but if you intend to just keep it as a 'small brick cellar' then it sounds as if you've already done the right things and, moreover, have witnessed the benefits. There will always be some moisture coming in through the underground walls but good ventilation should allow this to dissipate and keep things in a good condition - as seems to be the case.

 

[LadyArowana]

Don't tell the lime plaster it's below ground and let it think it's on an above ground wall and it will behave just fine!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Lime plaster or just limewash on brick will be just fine, I'm sure. Ignore the modern builders. We have one too, ( a wine cellar in a basement that used to be the servants ' working rooms) it's never been touched since 1800s, and is in good order, apart from one slightly rotting bit above the door. The lime wash is built up into very very thick layers, and it's a dry room.

 

[Zebra]

When the company says lime plaster won't work, what do they mean by that? Perhaps they mean it won't keep the damp out like tanking would. It doesn't work miracles, and if the walls are wet unplastered, then they will still be wet plastered. If there are damp patches, then they will still be there. But you say there is no water ingress.
Why not do a trial yourself - buy a bag of stuff - a supplier such as Mike Wye, Old House Store etc would advise what type of lime plaster to use (ie fat lime or NHL)- and stick a bit on the walls yourself, even if your plastering skills aren't up to much, it's only a trial and you can take it off and get it done properly later - and see what happens. People on here will always advice how to do it, or you could go on a lime plastering course if you wanted, but that's extra expense. Stick a bit on the walls and see how it behaves. For around £15 you could find out for yourself.

 

[GRADE_II_MONEYPIT]

When the company says lime plaster won't work, what do they mean by that? Perhaps they mean it won't keep the damp out like tanking would. It doesn't work miracles, and if the walls are wet unplastered, then they will still be wet plastered. If there are damp patches, then they will still be there. But you say there is no water ingress.
Why not do a trial yourself - buy a bag of stuff - a supplier such as Mike Wye, Old House Store etc would advise what type of lime plaster to use (ie fat lime or NHL)- and stick a bit on the walls yourself, even if your plastering skills aren't up to much, it's only a trial and you can take it off and get it done properly later - and see what happens. People on here will always advice how to do it, or you could go on a lime plastering course if you wanted, but that's extra expense. Stick a bit on the walls and see how it behaves. For around £15 you could find out for yourself.

Thanks for the replies

Zebra, I think i will do a few sample patches (I helped my stone mason re-point my exterior with lime over the last couple of years and am sure my efforts will suffice for a test area). I will order a bucket of lime plaster today.

The cellar will be used mainly as extra space for my boy, no soft furnishings etc.

Im sure the co. that tried to put me off wanted to sell a tanking system that simply isnt needed.

 

[garnett]

Hi

I come across this one quite frequently. Historically cellars where not made for habitation so could tolerate a level of dampness.

In this scenario it is an area which I would consider the possibility of a newlath 2000 membrane and a drain and pump.

This system is pinned to the wall but retains a gap for water to run down and collect in a drain which goes to a sump pump. It is better than tanking as it allows the wall to breathe but removes it before it can do damage. Lime plaster is then applied over the top.

I have refused consent for the system above ground as you need to address the underlying water getting into the building, but in the scenario you describe, it has merit if you want a habitable room.

Good luck

Garnett

 

[GRADE_II_MONEYPIT]

I have had another good look today and plan as follows

Removal of all loose material, re-point with lime mortar where required (especially removing old cement patch repairs and any gypsum plaster). Then re-assess before limewashing (wont look quite a good as a lime re-plaster).

If after lime washing and if not to my satisfaction visually I assume lime plastering can then be applied on top of limewash? (the removal, re-pointing and surface prep is required either way).

Really want to avoid any modern system if possible (minor damp damage and it is only where modern materials have been used)

Any thoughts?

*** EDIT ***

Just had a long chat with Mike Wye (very helpful and clearly a leading expert in the use of lime)

Mike doesnt see any reason (without having made own inspection) why lime plaster or lime wash cannot be used successfully in my cellar. I think I still plan to limewash first but will instruct contractor to use lime plaster from Mike Wye if we go on and plaster in the end (and limewash will be coming from him also).