Cellar Tanking

[Angus]

I have been considering making my cellar (25' x 14') a useful part of my (300 year old) house for a while. The problem is that the cellar is damp, and occasionally has pools of standing water in when it rains heavily. I have uncovered a sump (which now fills regularly when it rains heavily) and have put a fan and a dehumidifier in there and run them occasionally. I only run them occasionally because I'm not at home during the week and my wife can't be bothered! The cellar has a small (4" x 8") letterbox vent to the outside which has quite a good 'blow'.

Anyway, having come into a bit of money and wanting to make the best of the house I would like to make it usable a store-room/workshop. Emphatically not a second living room/playroom etc. I had a chap around from a company called 'lifecote' who surveyed and said they could tank the cellar (ie 'structural waterproofing' without a membrane and pump system). they quoted a '6 coat system' using Idrosilex Pronto/Triton 55 (4 coats) followed by 3:1 sand/cement render and then a plaster skim. My floor is flagstones (many cracked) on an earth floor. This they said they would cover with a Triton platon membrane with a chipboard floor.

Now, I was fine until I read chipboard. They were keen to keep (and even improve) the ventilation, which seemed good but the chipboard didn't sound right. They offer a 30 year (!) guarantee. All up price is around £4.5K. Is there anyone out there that can verify/vouch for the effectiveness of such a system or will it never work?

 

[Jon Maine]

The use of cement membranes and chipboard in a 300 year old house goes against the grain of looking after an old building really,

However,if this is a ribbed waterproofing system mechanically fixed to the wall which drains behind it may not be as bad as you have a barrier between the cement and the wall .

You need to avoid any sort of tanking which will keep the wall damp behind a painted on membrane which can force the damp further up the structure than the current damp in the cellar.

 

[Lime]

Sounds a good way to ruin an old cellar if you ask me.

Tanking will allow the water to build up and perhaps cause damage in the rest of the house.
I'd open and clean the sump then pump out the water.

 

[Jon Maine]

Sounds a good way to ruin an old cellar if you ask me.

Tanking will allow the water to build up and perhaps cause damage in the rest of the house.
I'd open and clean the sump then pump out the water.

Yes I agree Lime, I think he is talking about Newtonite Lathe type which does drain into a sump and get pumped.

 

[Angus]

The use of cement membranes and chipboard in a 300 year old house goes against the grain of looking after an old building really,

However,if this is a ribbed waterproofing system mechanically fixed to the wall which drains behind it may not be as bad as you have a barrier between the cement and the wall .

You need to avoid any sort of tanking which will keep the wall damp behind a painted on membrane which can force the damp further up the structure than the current damp in the cellar.

Thanks for all your comments. I want to make my cellar usable without affecting the rest of the house. What it looks like and the fact that my cellar is 300 years old is irrelevant to me from an aesthetic point of view.

Still, it would seem from your replies that a 'cementitious' plaster coat system is simply going to force the water elsewhere. If that's the case then I assume a pump and membrane system is what is required - the (rather weak) argument I heard against this was that the pump would require maintenance. Does anyone have any advice on any firms that could do this in the Hereford area?

 

[Lime]

What it looks like and the fact that my cellar is 300 years old is irrelevant to me from an aesthetic point of view.

Have you thought of moving and leaving the house to someone who would appreciate the "aesthetic point of view"?

 

[Angus]

What it looks like and the fact that my cellar is 300 years old is irrelevant to me from an aesthetic point of view.

Have you thought of moving and leaving the house to someone who would appreciate the "aesthetic point of view"?

Christ. Aesthetics in a cellar? Have you thought of keeping your crass opinions to yourself?

 

[Lime]

What it looks like and the fact that my cellar is 300 years old is irrelevant to me from an aesthetic point of view.

Have you thought of moving and leaving the house to someone who would appreciate the "aesthetic point of view"?

Christ. Aesthetics in a cellar? Have you thought of keeping your crass opinions to yourself?

I think not caring is crass.

 

[Angus]

I came here for advice - not a lecture on aesthetics from someone I don't know, who clearly doesn't know me or my house. When your official appointment as arbiter of taste, standards and the register of those who should be allowed to own old houses is confirmed please let me know.

Until then, keep your lectures to yourself.

 

[Craig]

Hi Angus - a Newton system sounds like something that would suit. A render system would probably blow anyway after a while - more a case of whether the render or the wall material goes first.

If you call Newton they will give you a list of the approved suppliers / fitters in your area.

It may not be necessary to have a pump if the existing sump drains naturally.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I came here for advice - not a lecture on aesthetics from someone I don't know, who clearly doesn't know me or my house. When your official appointment as arbiter of taste, standards and the register of those who should be allowed to own old houses is confirmed please let me know.

Until then, keep your lectures to yourself.

The ardent protectionism of some forum members towards the precious fabric and structure of old buildings can come as a shock when you do not know them. Lime is a tremendous, altruistic presence here, and he has the best interests of your house at heart.

Many of us love our old cellars. Mine is particularly beautiful, if I do say so myself. Part of it has been spoiled by tanking and inappropriate modern damp treatments. Only one section has the flagstones visible, I suspect they've been buried by nasty ceramic tiles and concrete elsewhere.

You ought not to think of your cellar as the ugly, unimportant duckling; I'm sure you would not feel this way about a lovely old roof. If I have got you wrong and you are cross at another unwelcome lecture then I'm sorry, but most forum members tend to like sentences like "what is the best way to preserve... how can I best look after" rather than "300 years of history is an irrelevance".

I'm sorry, I don't know how you de-damp a cellar. I'm just living with the damp, as they would have done years ago. Good luck.

 

[Jon Maine]

Angus,

If you use a newtonite ribbed lathe system with a pump it will protect the original fabric from the modern cement render.

The key question you should ask yourself before doing anything radical to our history is " is it reversible or is it complimentary to the original materials". If it is the later this is the best solution, if however this is not possible then as long as it is reversible, i.e. removable without damaging the original fabric of an old building that is second best.

Try looking at http://www.newton-membranes.co.uk/newlath.htm as Craig says contact them and they will put you in touch with installers in your area.

This system could essentially be removed and leave the fixing holes as the only mark on the original structure which can be filled so essentially it is reversible.

Good luck and please do come back.

 

[Angus]

Thank you for some practical advice - I'm not in the habit of damaging the fabric of my house, it is simply that, like almost everybody else, my cellar is a low priority. I want to use it as a storeroom/work area, just what I'm sure it was designed for.

Once again, many thanks, I shall be in touch with newton-membranes.

 

[PC]

Hi Angus,

I would avoid any form of system that requires Cementitous coatings or other liquid applied systems and a Cavity Membrane System (such as Newton) is the best way forward, but whether this needs some form of internal drainage system I cant say with out seeing the cellar.

The benefit of a Cavity Membrane System is that if any one in the future wants to return your nice dry cellar back into a cold and damp cellar, they can do this by simply removing the membrane system and other than drill holes in the walls.............. all is back as it was!!!

Before you go getting quotes, take some independent advice on the extent of damp control works required, types of finish etc and more importantly ventilation improvements / requirements etc.

You can get this from the PP web or from the PCA who have a few Independent Freelance Surveyors listed on their web site.

Hope this helps

Regards

PC