Cellar conversion on a victorian cottage - Help im new

[LtColumbo]

Hi i am new to the forums, so hello to everyone, i hope you can point me in the right direction.

I have just bought a house, its a lovely victorian cottage. It has a cellar that at the moment is not being used, and has been boarded up, with a trap door fitted. However the original stone staircase is in tact, and i was hoping to re-open the old staircase, and build a larger trap door to open and go down the stairs.

If we were to leave the stairs open it would compromise a lot of living space in the lounge, so this is my reason for making another £trap door".

Anyway, i have quickly inspected the cellar and it is quite cold and musty, but there were no clear problems with water, the floor was not wet. I am keen to put some use to this room as some sort of little retreat, maybe like a little wine cellar and games room, for occassional use when guests are visiting.

I am just wondering how i could go about cleaning it up, as it was quite dingy (lots of spider webs eek!) and make it look nice. I have looked into all sorts of things and i take it sealing/tanking the walls would be very wrong as they need to breathe. I also looked at cavity drainage membranes, but i dont think i have the know-how for that and getting it done would be expensive. Plus im not really sure that it needs it as there is no obvious risk of flooding, it seems relatively dry.

This led me to looking at limewash, but im not too clear on what the process is for limewashing. The cellar at the moment has exposed bricks and stones, would i need to plaster over these and with what? Lime Plaster?

Is limewash dangerous in anyway, and is it suitible for a room like that?

Would a dehumidifier and small heater work well to make the room habitable? Would there be a risk of major condensation?

What sort of things can i do with the floor, i take it a carpet is out of the question?

Does limewash crumble of like chalk to touch?

If it helps the cellar is approx 8ft x 8.5ft

Sorry about the massive essay, and all the questions but im just a young lad looking for a bit of guidance with my first home. Cheers

 

[Lime]

Well, first things first, has the cellar any ventilation?

Cleaning out the cellar of spiderwebs etc would be my first job.

You say that you wish to increase the size of the trapdoor to the cellar and I'm presuming it is in the lounge floor.
Will you be able to increase its size without having problems with the lounge floor joists getting in the way?

If this cellar was mine I'd be pleased that the walls were not painted as it is an original feature.

A little heating will not do any damage but don't expect it to be dry.
A cellar is always a little damp when the air is still.







I'm sorry to bother you again LtColumbo sir, but just one final question.
What sort of games do you expect to play in an area of 8x8.5ft?

 

[LtColumbo]

Firstly i would like to say thanks for the quick response. By opening up the original staircase i should not have any problems since it has just been boarding over and a rudimentary trap door put in its place with a ladder. As you walk down the ladder you can see the old steps and they look in fairly good condition.

The cellar does not have any ventalation as far as i am aware.

I am really pleased that no one has tried to paint it down there, as it would have made cleaning up their mess a job!

Would a dehumidifier keep it dry down there? Or maybe a fan to move the air around that i could put on a timer?

Plus the only game i could think of was poker, im thinking of putting a little circular table down there where we could sit with guests and sample the wine ("sample" who am i kidding!), or me and the lads could have a poker night!

So any ideas people?

 

[LtColumbo]

I was thinking maybe having some sort of natural floor like terra cota or something, would this be suitible (breathable)? Or should i just clean up the original stone floor?

If anyone can shed a light on my situation that would be greatly appreciated, like i said i have no experience with this sort of thing.

 

[middi]

I agree with Lime, your first priority is to brush and scrub clean what you have, the next step is to make sure there is good ventilation, forced if necessary, this should clear up any unwanted smells.

Cool fresh air is the best thing for cellars and to use them as such will cost hardly anything, if you deviate from the purpose for which they were intended, heat, dehumidifiers, tanking etc..may come into play.

To use lime wash is fine also a bit of heat if you want to, following this you can evaluate what other uses you can put it to.

 

[MdB]

Be warned. Bone dry cellers can suddenly fill up with water even if they have been dry for years. Either fit some sort of warning alarm or don't put anything down there you don't mind getting a little wet...

 

[LtColumbo]

So to get the fresh air down there what do people suggest?

I was thinking maybe some vents in the floor, with maybe some sort of fans pumping air from the front room down there. Would this work?

Would this sort of renovation be ok to use as an occassional room for dining with guests and playing a bit of poker? I know no one can say for sure but just informed opinions would be great!

Plus if i were to need a dehumidifier what sort would i need? Any recomendations?

I dont want to tank it, thats not supposed to be good for the building is it?

Can you get moisture alarms and has anyone got any recomendations

Again thanks for the responses people

 

[MdB]

Ventilation is what you want. Can you get air flow from the front of your house to the rear of the house via the cellar? If you can then passive airflow would probably be enough. Have you got any underfloor ventilation at the moment?

Heat + dehumidifiers will help dry the room out in the short term but are not a good long term solution.

 

[LtColumbo]

The cellar is completely sealed off from the outside as far as ventalation, there is no way of making air pass from front to back in the way you described. At the moment you can only access it from a hatch and once you are down there there is no ventalation.

I imagine i could fit some sort of vent to the floor of the lounge and attach a small fan to pump fresh air into the cellar a few times a day or something like that, is this feasible?

Why are heaters and dehumidifiers not that good?

If heat and dehumidifiers are not long term solutions what are?

Ive looked into CDMs and they look complicated! Is there a DIY approach to systems like this.

Like i said before there appears to be no major water problem down there, which is one of the main reasons i am hoping to be able to use this room.

Cheers everyone for helping me so far!

 

[Penners]

From your description, it sounds as though the cellar isn't damp to any serious extent, despite having been closed up for a considerable amount of time. So - if I were in your situation - I wouldn't be in too much of a rush to spend money on "damp-proofing" solutions.

And unless the room really is too damp to use at the moment, I would avoid using a dehumidifier - for the time being anyway. You might find that drying out the interior of the brick walls more than they're used to could suck in more moisture from the outside. If everything is in an acceptable equilibrium at the moment, I shouldn't disturb it too much.

I reckon that the first thing to do - as others have suggested - is to get some gentle ventilation going. Warm air will hold more moisure than cold air, so I suggest you allow air from within the house to feed in (maybe a couple of grilles in the floor above the cellar), but arrange somehow for it to exhaust to the exterior. This may mean taking a vent pipe up to the ground floor and then out through an exterior wall.

You can buy bathroom-type extractor fans that are triggered by an adjustable humidistat, so this might be a good investment, provided you have some way of piping the exhaust to the exterior of the house (as suggested above). This would ensure that, if the humidity in the cellar increased, the fan would cut in automatically (you'll probably have to do a bit of "suck-it-and-see" fiddling with the humidistat before you get the setting just right). Ultimately, you'll probably also want to install a heat source down there (radiator?)

Having done this, I would then wait and see how things go for a while - preferably for a year so you get a feel for the conditions in the cellar in all seasons. You might well find that you can use the room comfortably with no other measures (apart from a good clean). If you paint the walls, I would certainly use a breathable paint.

Finally, do pay heed to MdB's warning. Cellars can be unpredictable - particularly with the extremes of weather that we seem increasingly to be experiencing, these days. So I would avoid putting your best Persian rugs and Chippendale chairs down there! Have a careful look at the walls (particularly low down) - see whether you can see anything that might be a "tide mark", indicating that the cellar has flooded at some time.

 

[LtColumbo]

Thanks penners that was really good comprehensive advice! thanks a lot!

I think that is the way i will do it, just being patient. Ill give it a good clean and inspect the walls and then keep checking up on it to see how it changes through the seasons!

To get ventalation to the rear will be tricky, since it looks encapsulated by solid stone, but ill have a look!

So cheers everyone, feel free to chip in with more advice, like i said before im quite new to all this so if you can think of any tips anyone they will be very welcome!

 

[Penners]

To get ventalation to the rear will be tricky, since it looks encapsulated by solid stone, but ill have a look!

Ventilation really is the key. Even if you have to dig a small "well" (maybe 6in x 6in) against the back wall of the house and vent an electric fan out into it, you really need to find some way of getting that air flow going.

If you do this, make sure you take measures to ensure that the well has a covering of some kind that won't impede the air flow, but will keep the rain out.

 

[NT]

LtColumbo,


I have one question for you. How is it you manage to get involved with the real killer on day one every time? What gives them away so quickly?


I'd start with a good cleanup down there, shovel any dirt out, and mop with clean water and detergent to get eveyrtihng clean, then you'll know just what you've got, and it wont be horrid any more.

Venting to the lounge I cant recommend. The cellar will be much cooler, and the warm interior air will holds much more moisture than exteral air, and it may result in condensation in the cellar. It also will bring mustiness into the lounge and lose the heat in the lounge into the uninsulated cellar.

Better would be to vent to the outside.

For ongoing damp control, a humidistatic dehumidifier is a great way to go (set appropriately of course), and cheaper to run than external ventiation, but you still need some external ventilation to maintain a healthy space.

If you want tu upgrade it to a proper room, dry and warm, I'd look at that option after you've got it functional first.

Theres no reason you would have to plaster or paint, these are decoration you can live without if you prefer.

Water alarms are simple to make, and presumably can be bought for a tenner somewhere, but I dont know where.

> Is limewash dangerous in anyway

only if you get it in your eyes.


> Would a dehumidifier and small heater work well to make the room habitable?

If you add some ventilation, yes. But a dehumidifier needs to be humidistatic and set sensibly, dont go into overdrive with one.


> Would there be a risk of major condensation?

With a dehumidifier? no chance.


> What sort of things can i do with the floor, i take it a carpet is out of the question?

Depends how the floor's constructed, you'll need to see what you've got and whther it gets damp.


> Does limewash crumble of like chalk to touch?

No, it doesnt crumble, nor does it wipe off. If you brush it hard enough you'll see a faint amount of white dust on your finger.

If you want a better quality paint, distemper is it. But if your walls arent plastered, I wouldnt generally want to paint them.


NT

 

[LtColumbo]

Thank you for this comprehensive response guys, im starting to build a very good picture of how i should approach this now! The ventalation is obviously the hard part since the cellar is underground, and surrounded, so i would have to get that done professionally i expect, but anyway, this is all very very good help, thanks a lot!

 

[MdB]

The ventalation is obviously the hard part since the cellar is underground, and surrounded

Are all your floors solid then? No cavity underneath them?

 

[LtColumbo]

By the looks of it, since it is a solid stone staircase that goes down to the cellar, it will all be solid earth around it. The house is basically built like a castle, the walls are like 45cm thick. Im not sure if the house is pre-victorian looking at it! Its got like solid oak beams upstairs, which i didnt know if they had stopped doing that in victorian houses.

I think to burrow out to the rear of the cellar i would have to go through aroung 30-50cm of brick and stone, and then that would only get me to the underneath of the kitchen which is and extension of the original cottage.

Going the otherway would just go into the road.

 

[NT]

Sounds like its duct & fan then, if theres no wall to it that you can dig down t externally and put a long hole thru.


NT

 

[MdB]

Do you have a stone floor in the rest of the house then?

What I was thinking was that if your floor is timber then there will be a small cavity underneath it which should already be ventilated. It might then be relatively easy to get some vents from this floor space into your cellar. Mute point if you have a stone / concrete floor though.

 

[Moo]

Come on, Penners - something witty about mute points, please.

 

[MdB]

Come on, Penners - something witty about mute points, please.

Maybe he could just point out that I spelt it wrong....

“Moot” is a very old word related to “meeting,” specifically a meeting where serious matters are discussed. Oddly enough, a moot point can be a point worth discussing at a meeting (or in court)—an unresolved question—or it can be the opposite: a point already settled and not worth discussing further. At any rate, “mute point” is simply wrong, as is the less common “mood point."