Can you date these fireplaces?

[JoceAndChris]

Seeing as the rooms have not been "done up" or altered might they be original? We think the house may have been built in the 18th C,1770 ish.

Dining Room

Drawing Room- its twin

I think the brass has been painted here and bits are missing, I'm very tempted to try to strip off that black paint. I wonder why the two fireplaces are the same, if there was a 2 for one deal or if they just liked to have the same in different rooms?

Bedroom 1

Bedroom 2

I am confused that these 2 fireplaces have such simple pine surrounds, I wonder if they started out like that?

If anyone knows anything about Georgian fireplaces in a fairly rustic setting I'd be very glad to learn more!

Thanks so much
Joce

 

[Schoolmarm]

Pity Ev isn't here, she would know your answer.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Yes I'm sure she would. I don't like to bother her, as she doesn't know me from Adam!

 

[Penners]

Adam.... Ev......

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ahem.

Here goes with as inexpert a view as you're likely to find. I wonder whether your dining and drawing room ones, which have a vaguely Egyptian look to them, might be between the wars... Art Deco.

I could believe that bedroom 1 is original Georgian. Does bedroom 2 have a mantlepiece above it like 1? If so, then ditto. I don't think that Georgian fireplaces were always grand affairs - specially in bedrooms. Could the bedrooms have been servants' quarters? Indeed, are they still? :shock:

But - as I said - I have my tin hat on, in preparation for ridicule.

 

[essexbearhunter]

Based more on gut instinct than research, the two bedroom fireplaces have the delicacy & detailing that would go well in a small Georgian room. The simple swags echo on the fire front echo the decoration seen on chairs of that period. Currently the dark pine of the surround fights a bit with the cast iron. Painting it a light plain colour would lead the eye in to the delicate delights of the restrained ornamentation of the cast iron. The simple brass rail is a nice feature shining out of the blackness.

If these aren't genuine late Georgian, they are well-observed replacements.

The bigger fireplaces raise several questions:
Are the marble surrounds much later (prob 20th cent) replacements? To my eye, the selection of marble with such pronounced fossil inclusions just looks wrong and brings to mind the more gimmicky approach of the 1970s - rather than the idea of a plain base with carefully spaced applied or inlaid decoration used to catch the eye in the 1790s.

The surround which has been blacked with the exception of its corner details really carries on the feel of the bedroom fireplaces very well.
After mentally removing the current marble surround, all seems promising until cross reference to the other fireplace suggests that there should have been a black cast iron insert between the brass and the opening....and the double black framing would not work nearly so well.

My suspicion is that the unpainted brass with black cast iron insert is more or less as intended. Faced with the destruction of the insert in the other fireplace, a previous owner has tried to recreate the feel of a neat thin black frame for the fire (see on the other fireplaces ) by moving this outwards onto the brass.

The detailing of the brass - with roundels in the corners - is reminiscent of Georgian doorframes (both original and repro) so looking at the decoration on the cast iron insert may give a clearer idea of date.

This then gives the lead on stripping/not stripping the painted brass. If you can come up with a suitable cast iron insert to re-instate the "thin black line"around the fire, then full steam ahead on removing the paint.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

I think that one of the bedroom fireplaces has the original mantlepieces but bedroom 2 looks most odd and the insets do seem a little grand with their reeded pillars and rosettes. Fireplaces in bedrooms usually reflected the status of the room, the Servant's quarters often had little narrow fireplaces with a very plain mantlepiece, inset and basket.

Plain grey marble surrounds are found in Georgian properties, but there is something that does not quite fit with yours-- hard to tell from piccy.

How long were the people before you living there? Did they do some reclaim stuff? Maybe the brickwork around the edges will tell you something.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I don't see anything in the photos that would be inconsistent with a date around 1790 - 1820 (the larger fireplaces seem to be towards the end of that date range, the smaller ones could be any time within those dates)

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks so much for your kind and detailed thoughts.

Penners, there is a servant sleeping in one of the rooms- me! Who slept in these rooms originally is a puzzle. The building of the house was organised by a local earl who lived in a lovely hall which still stands about a mile away across the fields. We think it was built as a hunting lodge or cottage orné.[*]The original views across the Vale of Belvoir must have been astonishing. I don't think anyone grand would have slept here although there might have been the need for a bedroom, if you know what I mean! There might have been a servant living in the top bedroom which I have not photographed. There is no fire there; it must have been freezing.

I have photos of the rooms in the early 80's showing these fireplaces. Between 1987 and 2008 the cottage was restored, yes, usng reclaimed materials, but these fireplaces were not touched. Prior to that it was inhabited by an old recluse who did nothing to it; the photos are extraordinary and look more like life in 1880 than 1980, no electricity, water fetched from external pump to an artesian well, no internal structural change, no repainting, original lime plaster everywhere, squalor, mould and filth. I find it hard to imagine the fire surrounds would have been replaced or even touched during the second part of the 20th C.

Derbyshire fossil marble seems to have been used in Georgian fire surrounds.

http://www.britainsheritage.co.uk

So I'm not quite ready to believe these surrounds are modern, especially as the hearthstones adjoin the Georgian floorboards so convincingly.

the dark pine of the surround fights a bit with the cast iron. Painting it a light plain colour would lead the eye in to the delicate delights of the restrained ornamentation of the cast iron. ...

If you can come up with a suitable cast iron insert to re-instate the "thin black line"around the fire, then full steam ahead on removing the paint.

Thanks, I completely agree with these suggestions.

I think Bedroom 2's surround is an old replacement for what was there originally as there is no mantel.

Just read your post Gareth, thanks! I won't make any changes then.


[*]"The cottage orné first rose to prominence towards the end of the eighteenth century and particularly during the Regency through the work of John Nash. Cottage Orné designs were built amid romantic wooded scenery as simple rustic retreats from the increasing artificialities and complications of urban life. "

 

[JoceAndChris]

After a few hours of wandering from room to room scratching my head I realise that the copper coloured thing in the drawing room fire, sorry I don't have a technical term, belongs and fits in the 30's fire Chris is rebuilding. So I need to find an appropriate replacement for the drawing room.

I'd also like the marble to look as good as it does when wet, any recommendations for this?

 

[Penners]

I'd also like the marble to look as good as it does when wet, any recommendations for this?

Try a light treatment with boiled linseed oil. Wipe off any excess and allow it to dry.

But try a small test area in an inconspicuous place, first, just to make sure you like the effect.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I'd also like the marble to look as good as it does when wet, any recommendations for this?

Try a light treatment with boiled linseed oil. Wipe off any excess and allow it to dry.

But try a small test area in an inconspicuous place, first, just to make sure you like the effect.

That has worked beautifully- thanks Penners!

 

[Penners]

Jolly good. You may find that you'll need to freshen up the treatment in a year or so, if it starts to look a bit dull. Just be sure always to apply sparingly and wipe off any excess.

No resting on your laurels, now. On with the next job!

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Just to sound (possibly too late) a note of caution,If your marble has an all-over dark yellow-brown or orange staining this might be the result of previous treatments where a combination of linseed oil and beeswax was applied as a polish, permeating the structure and, over time, forming an oxalate skin which invariably discolours the crystalline structure. Oxalate skins are complex and almost impossible to remove.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/sc...ing_marble_plaster/Cleaning Marble/index.html

The idea that linseed oil is a suitable long-term treatment for anything but wood (and even then with care) is suspect. It isn’t good for porous flooring either, over time it can sink in and go black.

Thanks to for that

 

[JoceAndChris]

Ah, so now we have the explanation for your earlier comment "Penners' muck". That link you provided is extremely good, thanks Gareth.

Sorry Penners, you're so lovely and helpful and it does look so shiny and pretty.

Right, I'll pour the linseed oil in the hedge then. Only one fireplace got done, and I hadn't got round to the floors.

I don't think these fireplaces have ever been treated. The staining on them is from soot and fallen burning stuff. But I guess it's yet another job for professionals, starting to think I shouldn't work on this cottage at all.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Ah, so now we have the explanation for your earlier comment "Penners' muck". That link you provided is extremely good, thanks Gareth.

Sorry Penners, you're so lovely and helpful and it does look so shiny and pretty.

Right, I'll pour the linseed oil in the hedge then. Only one fireplace got done, and I hadn't got round to the floors.

I don't think these fireplaces have ever been treated. The staining on them is from soot and fallen burning stuff. But I guess it's yet another job for professionals, starting to think I shouldn't work on this cottage at all.

Don't get downhearted, just remember 90% or more of the surviving marble fireplaces from that period have probably had similar things done to them, it just isn't recommended by the High Art conservators at the V n A. Such treatments may start a gradual downward spiral in appearance and performance, but you aren't listed and you could, if you wished, just take a sledgehammer to the lot, so you're already doing far, far better than some people would.

 

[JoceAndChris]

"The teacher who walks in the shadow of the temple, among his followers, gives not of his wisdom but of his faith and his lovingness"

Thanks Mr Hughes for those much-needed words of encouragement.

 

[Penners]

High Art Conservators and I have frequent learned conversations about such matters, over a pint of sludge in the Frog & Nightgown. I ask their advice... they ask mine... we do have a giggle. :wink:

But in the final analysis, I reckon there's 'Top End Purist*' and there's real life. I'm sure Gareth is correct about the oxy-wossname skin, but I've used linseed sparingly on marble, slate and limestone over long periods without any apparent cosmetic deterioration. Quite the reverse in fact.

I should just pop a clause in your Will that your children and grandchildren shouldn't be over-generous with it.


*No sneering intended - where the finest artefacts are concerned then the finest techniques should of course be used.

 

[JoceAndChris]

*No sneering intended - where the finest artefacts are concerned then the finest techniques should of course be used.

Are you saying then that my Egyptianesque fireplaces are not the finest artefacts? Gadzooks! Pistols at dawn!

 

[Penners]

Are you saying then that my Egyptianesque fireplaces are not the finest artefacts?

In order to answer that question I first need to know whether they were personally hand-crafted by William Morris.

 

[JoceAndChris]

In order to answer that question I first need to know whether they were personally hand-crafted by William Morris.

Zounds, man, William Morris wasn't even a twinkle in his father's eye when those were put in!