Can it be done?

[Anne]

A question for all you experts out there. I simply love this, all the restoration the fact that I'm restoring something meaningful here, that I'm putting a house back how it should be. Most of us spend a lifetime working on our own property. That however means that the skills and information we've learned are only used on one property. So many old buildings expecially those that are not listed are modernized by developers in horrible ways. They are out to make huge profits many times at the cost of the building.

Back to the question, if someone was so inclined to take on another house and develop it with the houses' interests in mind using the proper materials could they still turn a profit? I can't afford to do another one for only the sake of the house. However I've been toying with the idea that it could be done without sacrificing the building. I'm not out to get rich quick obviously but I couldn't afford to do it for free either.

 

[middi]

Restoration to make money ?, a very good question Anne.

From a developers point of view there is always money to be made from "converting" or " refurbishing" period properties, old barns and even factories.

As to "restoring" that is a different kettle of fish. Labour intensive, shortage of craftsmen and expensive raw materials in most cases, makes the proposition not as actractive.

Well restored properties will command higher premium though.

I firmly believe that in most instances good restoration is a labour of love more suited to the "smitten by the bug" because the hours of work which go into a project are not realistically added up or paid to external contractors. Therefore this type of restorer will not only get pleasure out of doing it, the chances are that a "good profit" will be made.

 

[NT]

I think it has to depend on the bulding and the skills of the person doing it. Repairing a victorian terraced house properly is not generally any more expensive than screwing it up - in fact I think it tends to cost less to do it properly. OTOH restoring a listed building is another ballgame.

It also depends on the house price climate, when prices are going up its much easier to make a profit, when prices slump its another story. And of course you cant reliably predict.


NT

 

[Lime]

I think it has to depend on the bulding and the skills of the person doing it. Repairing a victorian terraced house properly is not generally any more expensive than screwing it up - in fact I think it tends to cost less to do it properly. OTOH restoring a listed building is another ballgame.



NT

I absolutely agree.
As long as you can source what materials you need it is skill that is the main ingredient.

 

[Penners]

Well restored properties will command higher premium though.

Doesn't that depend ultimately on who buys them? It's a sad fact that the great majority of buyers know nothing about the difference between good and bad restoration. And unless they "know a man who does" (ie: a suitably experienced specialist surveyor), they're not going to get good professional advice.

A building society valuation survey will probably just tick the usual boxes ("...some evidence of damp...", "...recommend damp survey...", "...withholding of X% of funds until installation of DPC...") and so on.

And the purchasers will probably take one look at the original (draughty) sash windows and start dreaming of luvverly d/g uPVC.

So the next step will be the inevitable negotiating down of the price.

I probably sound very jaundiced, but in my view the period properties most likely to command premium prices are those with poison-impregnated beams, genuine reproduction uPVC windows, a newly injected DPC and a good thick layer of criminally overpriced plastic exterior coating...

...oh, and an Aga of course.

 

[DevenishEstates]

Anne,

I'm in the very process of doing exactly what you've described. Whether I make any money from it I'm yet to find out but I am trying to do 'the right thing by the building'

To be honest it's been (and continues to be) something of a worry. As people have pointed out doing the right thing by the building doesn't necessarily make a 'marketable' property.

I've found it very difficult to find people skilled in using traditional materials and when I have found them they tend to come in at a premium. As a result I'm doing a lot of the work myself - not saying I'm skilled but I do take my time to make sure it's right.

Penners points out the valuation survey issue which I know will come to haunt me when the potential purchasers surveyor says "French Drain, what's that?, why didn't you just tank it" and the purchasers will then try to argue a couple of grand off the price to have 'remedial damp work' carried out.

In hindsight I would give the following advice if you want to continue:

1. Add a 20% contingency to your budget - I've found several costly issues which needed to be resolved and are now threatening to 'stretch' my original budget.
2. Get advisors who are knowledgable about old buildings - particularly a sypathetic and experienced (in old buildings) surveyor.
3. If it's listed listen to your conservation officer - they are (mostly) good at arguing your case with the building control officer, they are a mine of information and advice and if you speak with them before purchasing you'll know what might be possible and what wouldn't be.
4. Buy at the right price - I was lucky I bought at a very good price. If I bought at my ceiling price I would have already lost money.
5. Never buy the right house in the wrong location - This house is fantastic but it's location will always limit it's ceiling price so I'm fairly limited with the value that I can really add.
6. Don't assume all your trades will agree with what you're doing, be explicit about what your approach is to the building and it's restoration and if you discover something worth keeping protect it during the works.
7. As a developer there will always be compromises. When the work you're doing earns you your living there is undoubedtly going to be decisions you are forced to make that you probably wouldn't make if it was your house and you had all the time in the world - I'm just trying to ensure that I make the compromises in the areas where it has no effect on the fabric of the building (e.g. stud plasterboarded partitions in place of oak framed, reed plastered partitions).

I hope this has been of some use and hope I haven't bought upon myself the wrath of the forum!

 

[NT]

I wonder how long you'll keep up all this extra work once you notice that
- no buyer gives a monkeys,
- they treat you as a fool for your decisions,
- they try to argue for money off because you failed to dpc it or replace the old windows
- and you realise its costing you time thus money, money you could really do with.

Its one thing criticising developers, but sometimes one has to realise why they do what they do. Not many folk are wiling to work for others for free.


NT

 

[middi]

Restoration of period property will test the owners strategic plans as to which side he/she decides to bat for:.

1) The bank balance

2) Pride and appreciation of historical buildings in their entirety.

As Penners suggested, who gives a monkey as long as these buildings look" nearly" rightly restored and the BS will have no objection in releasing the funds.

Well, chaps and chappesses, it is a matter of self gratification as to what we decide to accomplish.

 

[Penners]

self gratification

That can make you go blind, you know.

 

[Nemesis]

Advertise it on here when it's completed.

 

[middi]

It can always be used as a method to work in harmony with the building Penners, nothing looks straight anyway.

 

[Penners]

It can always be used as a method to work in harmony with the building Penners, nothing looks straight anyway.

Yes Middi - when dealing with old buildings the very first thing you learn is to throw your spirit level away.

If it looks right - it's right!

 

[Gervase]

Far, far better to let someone else buy the building and you provide the expertise to restore it. That is profitable and relatively risk-free.
The only way I would be tempted to buy to restore to sell would be if I could buy a place for a ludicrously low amount of money in an incredibly desirable area.

 

[Penners]

The only way I would be tempted to buy to restore to sell would be if I could buy a place for a ludicrously low amount of money in an incredibly desirable area.

I suspect you're about to be hit with a Nemesis BAR barrage.

 

[Gervase]

But it would be the perfect solution for buildings at risk - rather than have them bulldozed, have them bought up by lunatics like us, lovingly restored with no expense spared and then sold at a thumping loss...
Oh bum, that's where the plan falls apart!

 

[Nemesis]

I think honestly it would depend on the property - it's very hard to generalise.

I think a decent job can be done if you find the right place, and I think that there will always be people with a little discernment out there.

 

[Penners]

I have an awful feeling that you've just described my current project, Gervase.

 

[Penners]

I think that there will always be people with a little discernment out there.

Nah - they're all in here. The rest of 'em are Phillistines.

 

[NT]

I think that there will always be people with a little discernment out there.

Nah - they're all in here. The rest of 'em are Phillistines.

seems so to me too, including most of those who ought to know better

NT

 

[essexbearhunter]

Part of the problem surely lies in finding someone who agrees with your compromises vis-a-vis an old house and a modern demands.

Understandably, the person who wanted to be so "totally faithful to the original building" that they ripped out the bathrooms and loo and proudly showed the new prospective buyers their reconstructed privy at the end of the garden and an 18th century hip bath, might find the market unsympathetic to their vision.

Many of our finest Stately Homes have been a fusion of the (then) new with the old-often demolishing large parts of the old to make way for it-...so (with hindsight) blurring the formula that decides who is deserving of the label of "Phillistine".

After that, the same rules apply to Period Property as to any other...Get to know your market; what it wants/needs/prizes (and is willing to pay). If it will pay for your style of restoration, you have a business.