Calling all period technology experts...

[Moo]

We're reaching the fag-end of the 120 boxes that emerged from storage at the beginning of the month.
Books have been no problem. The OH has gritted his teeth and edited his library quite ruthlessly, and the locals have descended like locusts on his cast-offs.
But now we're tackling the audio and video boxes, and I'm feeling rather daunted by the number of videotapes we have and, space being at such a premium, I'd like to get them all transferred to DVDs. Without paying someone else to do it, if possible.
Would it be possible to buy a cable that would connect our VHS machine to our Mac?
And - what do I do about the (8mm?) cassettes that we used in our first, long-defunct video camera?

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, the downside of the ease with which we can record things these days is looking after the results. The first thing to ask yourself is how committed are you to spending the time required to manage your personal media collection?

For example, I've taken thousands of photos of the works on our house and my initial enthusiam was such that I compiled a couple of 'photobooks' online and had them printed. The result is wonderful and I've referred to them and shown them off many times, but I have enough material for at least another five or six similar books and I'm wondering if I'll ever get aroundto it!

As for video material, I have a lot of family video tapes on a range of formats from Betamax (yes, I know!), 8mm analogue and miniDV. I've also got about 4 hours of 8mm cine film to be converted into video. Some years ago, I transferred them (except the cine films) to DVD and the result was that that they were viewed far more than they ever had been in their native formats - which is a good thing. But it took a great deal of time, and that was without any real editing. Yet less than 10 years later, DVD technology is on its way out!

These days of course, camcorders record onto memory cards and the contents usually transferred to a PC for viewing. The cost of hard drives has plummeted over the years and it's now feasible to store all our family media on a single hard drive (or perhaps two). The advantage of a hard drive over DVDs (or other physical media) is that the content is instantly available. This makes for more convenient viewing but, perhaps more importantly, it also means it is very easy to copy an entire archive to another storage technology when it arrives in the future (and it will!).

So, in short, yes it's possible to copy all old video (and cine film) formats onto almost any form of media, but I'd be wary of investing lots of time and money in creating a DVD archive that might soon become obsolete itself. Converting old video content into 'files' on a hard drive will create an archive that should be easier to manage, view and distribute to family and friends. It also makes it far easier to edit and compile completely new 'shorts' such as a video charting the growing up of children using clips pulled from a range of original material, or documenting the progress of a renovation project. It all involves more work, of course, but at least all the source material would be 'online' and very easy to access.

In summary: It's all possible, but it will consume considerable time and effort. After all, it's not a lot different to tackling those drawers and cupboards full of old photos that I'm sure we all have, but keep putting off organising into albums.


PS:It goes without saying (or should do) that family videos are precious items to the people concerned and are at risk of being lost forever because of media failures. Video tapes can become worn, creased and torn, DVDs can develop faults, especially recordable ones that use dyes to record the information and hard drives are infamous for suddenly 'crashing' and losing all their contents. The only effective safeguard for such things is to make multiple copies of such material, which is a whole different subject, but suffice to say that it is far easier to make a copy of a hard drive than it is to make copies of 30, 40, 50 DVDs - so it's far more likely to actually be done!

 

[skier-hughes]

Best item is a canopus advc analogue digital convertor. There are several in the range and you can find them on ebay when people have finished with them.
Not he cheapest, but have good resale value.
Hardly any problems with them.

The same cannot be said for the cheap usb convertors.

You can buy a cheap 8mm camera and connect it with the canopus device to copy them over, then ebay it back on again as well.

I'd save them all to a hard drive, dvds have very poor longevity, your tapes will still be useable long after dvds you've burned are useless.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313&_nkw=canopus+advc&_sacat=0&_from=R40

 

[Lime]

The main bugbear with re-recording anything analogue is that it has to be done in real time i.e. if a film is 45 minutes long it will take 45 minutes to record digitally.
I re-recorded family cine film using a large screen and my video camera.
The film had no sound.
The video camera was set up right next to the cine projector with the screen (a ballotini glass screen for maximum light reflection) about 15 feet away to maintain aspect ratio.
The DVDs I created were distributed around the family and gave the same atmosphere and sound of the projector.
The raw recordings are kept on hard drives.
A similar set up could be used for analogue video using a flat screen tv.

I have transferred nearly all my old hybrid video camera tapes (digitally recorded in an analogue format) to hard drives.
The camera uses a firewire link to transfer the tape to computer and there are several video processing applications (free) that will capture the information.
USB video capture will often lead to the sound not being synchronised with the video so I never use it.
Average size of 45 minutes of video = 13.5 GB...... that is a big file!

 

[skier-hughes]

If you film cine you should do it with a s small a picture as possible, something in the region of 6"x4".
I wouldn't try to film a tv, if you now have an HD tv, SD goes all blocky and you have the strobing effect of the interlacing.
If you capture as dv.avi, the best file type really for editing and film preservation without going into professional standards, you should get 60 minutes at around 13gb.
Although it all has to be done in real time, there si nothing to say you need to stand and watch over it Plenty of time for drinks and nibbles in the sun

 

[Flyfisher]

Average size of 45 minutes of video = 13.5 GB...... that is a big file!

Yes, video involves very large files. However, to put that into context, a 1TB hard drive costs around £50 these days and, even using those figures, will store about 56 hours of video, i.e. less than £1 per hour.

As Skier point out, the dv-avi video format is best for non-HD video and will be able to store around 78 hours on a 1TB hard drive.

 

[skier-hughes]

Forgot, you're using a Mac, so you'd have a MOV wrapper, but would still use the .dv extension file type, same size file.

 

[Lime]

If you film cine you should do it with a s small a picture as possible, something in the region of 6"x4".
I wouldn't try to film a tv, if you now have an HD tv, SD goes all blocky and you have the strobing effect of the interlacing.

Much depends on the type of video camera you have.
My old hybrid Sony video recorder will record just about anything without any flicker or striations at all. It knocks many modern video cameras into a cocked hat in its performance.
(It does have a setting to avoid flicker or striation if it occurs but I have never had to use it.)
Its ability to record good colour with high definition in very low and variable light levels is perhaps its most impressive feature.
I haven't found an advantage in using a smaller cine image to record from if the lens and screen are good quality.
I do have a cine converter that uses a much smaller image and have tried it several times but the larger screen, albeit less convenient, gives a much more realistic/genuine result IME.

Of the films that I re-recorded (about 40 reels, some 30+ minutes long consisting of several spliced smaller reels, dating from 1946 to 1985) the edges of the projected frames were usually blurry, variable and undefined, particularly with the older pre-super8 film.

An important decision to be made before going any further with re-recording is whether the edge of the projected image (the frame) is clipped or not.

Clipping the edges of the film frames to give a crisp edge to the video may appear more modern but the clipping cuts off part of the image, which is consequentially lost, and that may be important from a family history point of view.
Added to that IME the overall projected image dimensions on the average reel of film doesn't remain absolutely constant (an artefact produced by cine cameras) so greater image loss can occur on the larger images if all edges are clipped to tidy them up.
I had some discussion with my family as to whether or not to include the original blurry edges in the new recordings.
My mother in law didn't want the blurry edges to be included (but she would still throw out the last stuffed Dodo if it were untidy!) and it was decided not to clip the film frame and leave it exactly as it appeared on the projected screen.
Watching the video looks and sounds as if you are using a projector.

I felt that if anyone wished to "clean up" the image there are several applications that can do that at a later stage and, being a Windows user, Format Factory is a simple and free example.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

I think Moo will deserve an ENORMOUS gin and tonic if she can get her head around all that technical advice-- double Dutch to me!

But Moo, I can identify with your dilemma--- I still have a couple of hundred books boxed away in the attic. My CD collection is steadily being transferred to an I pod which is almost out of date itself-- the video collection has mercifully been reduced to half a dozen of particular relevance to OH's previous life and DVD's are just down to 6 of my favourite dramas. All this trouble is because we still have a very good, albeit 20 year old, NAD music system which still works well and a video recorder/player that won't wear out, in our study!! As for photographs, well a drawer full! Every time I open the drawer to clear them out I get lost in a world of memories! Downsizing is soooooo demanding!!

 

[88v8]

Yet less than 10 years later, DVD technology is on its way out!

:shock: I haven't got round to buying a DVD player yet!
Tend to avoid fangulations until they're well proven.
Still using the video, which I bought in 1999.

I do know that anything put on a hard-drive will eventually be lost unless it's backed up.

Ivor

 

[wobs]

Yet less than 10 years later, DVD technology is on its way out!

:shock: I haven't got round to buying a DVD player yet!
Tend to avoid fangulations until they're well proven.
Still using the video, which I bought in 1999.

I do know that anything put on a hard-drive will eventually be lost unless it's backed up.

Ivor

I replaced many of our videos with DVDs a year or two ago. They are so cheap these days, and the quality is more than good enough for me.

I see no need to go to blu-ray, and while I may rip them to hard drive one day, there are no plans ATM.

That said, I recently got a Wombles video, as it was in a pile outside someone's house, with a notice saying "free videos, take one or 20". We have a DVD/video player, and will one day digitise many of our vids we can't buy on DVD (eg. Fatherland, and the TV showing of Akira)

All our music is ripped to hard drive, but we still buy CDs, as I like the idea of having that back up.

 

[Moo]

all that technical advice-- double Dutch to me!

Thanks for that, Joss - I was beginning to suspect that I'm uniquely incompetent in matters technological!

When we still had a cassette machine I found it quite easy to digitise my collection of recordings of the children (I used to 'bug' them throughout their childhoods). I simply plugged one end of a cable into the headphone socket, the other end into the microphone socket of the computer, and pressed Play. Some sort of magic created something called a QuickTime file that I could edit and record on to a CD. I was hoping that something similar could be done with the videos, but it seems as though it will be too complicated for my limited intellectual and financial resources, and with no guarantee of longevity.

So I think I will have to resign myself to using the VHS machine, and trying to get hold of an ancient video camera on which to view the older cassettes. Or even seek out a commercial outfit that will digitise it all for me.

Oh dear. It seems that conserving period technology is as complicated and expensive as looking after period property.

 

[Flyfisher]

I do know that anything put on a hard-drive will eventually be lost unless it's backed up.

Ivor

That's true, but it's not unique to hard drives. NO medium will last forever, though obviously some will last longer than others. Even photographs fade over time (colour ones faster than B&W). Then there is the risk of loss or damage.

Only copying can protect against such things and the advantage of digital media is that a perfect copies can be made. The advantages of hard drives is that copying is simple and doesn't require regular attention to change media, as with DVDs, so it's far more likely to actually be done.

 

[Flyfisher]

I replaced many of our videos with DVDs a year or two ago. They are so cheap these days, and the quality is more than good enough for me.

I've done the same thing for my favourite films. Mass produced DVDs are physically different to the recordable ones because they are 'stamped' out and the data is therefore stored physically on the disc. Recordable DVDs use chemical dyes to store the data and will degrade over many years/decades.

All our music is ripped to hard drive, but we still buy CDs, as I like the idea of having that back up.

Ditto. Plus, CDs are not digitally compressed, so you get the full quality of the original recording, which is not always the case when buying online music.

 

[Flyfisher]

When we still had a cassette machine I found it quite easy to digitise my collection of recordings of the children (I used to 'bug' them throughout their childhoods). I simply plugged one end of a cable into the headphone socket, the other end into the microphone socket of the computer, and pressed Play. Some sort of magic created something called a QuickTime file that I could edit and record on to a CD. I was hoping that something similar could be done with the videos, but it seems as though it will be too complicated for my limited intellectual and financial resources, and with no guarantee of longevity.

The gadget that Skier suggested will enable you to do the same thing with your videos and the resulting quicktime files can be easily stored on an external hard drive. The results will likely have more longevity than those video tapes you're unable to view at the moment.

Oh dear. It seems that conserving period technology is as complicated and expensive as looking after period property.

Sort of. I'd suggest it's similar in the sense of having to understand and plan things carefully before rushing in and making mistakes, but that the end result is well worth the effort.

 

[plasticpigeon]

How about buying a dvd recorder?? I have one somewhere I'm sure but never found much use for it, but it is possible to link a VHS player and dvd recorder together (I'm not even sure it has to go through the TV) and record in real time just like recording a VHS. Also I think VLC video player which is freely downloadable could accomplish the same task recording to hard drive, but it would need some messing about to work out the details.

 

[Lime]

Unfortunately I don't think there is anything "simple" about re-recording old tapes/films etc.
Each and everyone is likely to be different and throw up it own quirky problems.
Even after you have everything set up correctly to make a recording things can still go wrong particularly with the old recorded media.
For instance, tapes get snarled up, films break, stick and burn etc.
And one thing is for sure, if anything is going to go wrong it will be while you leave the re-recording to do something else!

 

[Flyfisher]

films break, stick and burn etc.

Fair point. We gave up watching cine on old and knackered projectors because of this very reason.

There is a way around it though and that's to have the film transferred to video using a telecine machine in which each individual frame is scanned and then assembled into an appropriate video file. This method also results in the highest possible quality.

Unfortunately, telecine machines are very expensive bits of kit so it's only practical to have such things done commercially. There are plenty of places offering such a service but it can be expensive. Expect to pay around £150 per hour. We have just over 4 hours to be converted at some stage . . .

This is the sort of thing: http://www.alivestudios.co.uk/cine-film-to-dvd.php

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Forgot to mention we still have our slides and projector------- :!:

 

[Flyfisher]

Yep - I have hundreds of kodachromes as well, waiting to be scanned. Yet another technology no longer available.