buying and renovating listed building

[beka]

please be gentle, I've lived in old houses (victorian and edwardian) all my life (32 yrs) and done up 3, but none of them were even in a conservation area let alone listed. For our next move we are looking at a georgian Grade II listed building and I have a few questions, I've done research and I plan to talk to the local planning dept but I'm trying to get as much ino as psosible before we decide whether to buy or not so here goes;

1 WE've viewed two houses both georgian Grade II listed and both the owners said that the planning dept/conservation officer is really only concerned about the frontage of the house, is this likely?

2 The one we are keenest on is a 3 story conversion from an old mill building, apart from the basic structure of the building and one door on the ground floor there isn't a single feature inside the property, no skirting boards even! Does this mean we'll have less hassle doing up the inside?

3 It needs complete renovation, there isn't a kitchen in there at the moment and generally it hasn't been touched since around 1965 (old lady, being sold by family) Are there any restrictions on kitchens/ plumbing/ internal wiring/ central heating

4 There is a stonkingly ugly leanto type extension (very small only 5ft by 5 ft) at the back of the house. We'd like to replace that and have 4 options from the one that gives us the most space to the one that replicates what is there.
a) demolish existing extension and replace with a 6 ft square double height extension at other side of house (a move of about 5-10 ft basically so it opens off from the pantry rather than by the chimney breast which is awkward). This would give us a utility area/porch on the ground floor and a small bathroom of the landing on the first floor
b) demolish existing extension and move to other side of building as above, link extension to old outhouses to create larger (6ft x 12ft) kitchen space.
c) demolish exisitng extension with large extension (6ft x 6ft or 5 ft x 7ft) on same side
d) renovate existing extension to create better use of space.

All of this is because its a very narrow and tall building, the living room at present would be the front room on the ground floor which opens straight in off the street. You have 2 rooms on each floor which gives you 3 bedrooms and a bathroom on floors 2 and 3.

We'd like to be able to have a sitting room on the first floor for a bit more privacy and a larger dining kitchen on the ground floor, if we can create a small 'boxroom' bathroom via an extension that would be perfect!

(sorry if thats just tmi)

Finally, its got old (but apparantly not orginal) single glazed sash windows. I seem to get conflicting advice about this, can you replace a timber framed single glazed sash window with a double glazed timber framed sash window made in exactly the same way to fit the space.

Any other hints and tips are very welcome.

 

[Nemesis]

The building is listed, inside and out - not just the front.

You can look up the listing description on Images of England and see what it tells you.


The windows - I wouldn't bet on being able to replace them, and also I'd check that the lack of features is not because it's been stripped out in recent times, or you may be liable to have to put them back! Same with the extension - you may or may not be allowed to demolish, it will depend, but the best advice is to contact the Conservation or Historic Buildings Officer at the local authority, and discuss any plans in outline before you buy. You should be able to get some 'feel' for what sort of approach would be likely to gain LBC.

 

[Penners]

Take heed of what Nemesis says.

(1) The people who tell you that the CO is only interested in the frontage aren't giving you the full picture. If a building is listed, then the whole building is listed, plus any permanent structures within its curtilege.

(2) The extent of the constraints placed on you in "doing up" the interior will depend on a lot of factors. Not least among these will be the condition of the building when it was listed. To echo what Nemesis said, if a lot of period "features" have been illegally stripped out, then you may find yourself required to put them back in a manner sympathetic to the age and character of the building. So you might have a fair amount of hassle in this regard.

(3) Restrictions on your plumbing, wiring and kitchen installation are very unlikely to prevent you from installing these, but you may find yourself required to do so in a manner than avoids any damage to, or removal of, original fabric.

(4) I think your extension question is impossible to answer. It will depend entirely on what your CO regards as an acceptable development of the building.

Do take Nemesis' advice and contact your CO to discuss your plans. Try to avoid being too demanding in your attitude, and ask advice, rather than stating your intentions. Explain what you need from the building, and ask the CO how he/she feels that that you might be permitted to satisfy those needs.

 

[beka]

thanks thats useful stuff so far. Just to clarify there never where any original features inside, as I said it was converted from a mill and so its just narrow tall rooms carved out of a large mill building (seen original photo's etc). There weren't any fireplaces, coving, skirting boards etc etc.

I know the whole house is listed, the owners of the houses we've seen said that the frontage was the reason for the listing and so LBC etc was much stricter for any changes/renovations to the front. Looking along the row (all listed) there are 3 extensions, 2 lots of double glazing and lots of new 1960's doors (all at the back). At the front of the row most of the houses have off the peg fake victorian type doors (certianly not period)

So If we wanted to put in central heating does that mean you can't take up floorboards? what about holes in walls for venting etc

Sorry to sound niave, please remember I'm trying to do the right thing by asking questions here (and in other places) BEFORE buying!

I will be talking to the conservation officer but they are on holiday til wednesday!

 

[Penners]

Nobody's suggesting that you sound naive. This forum exists for questions like yours, so don't be embarrassed!

It's not impossible that your CO will be rather more liberal about changes to the building behind the frontage, but I don't think anyone can give you any guarantees about this. It just depends on the CO's view of the historic importance the entire building. This same principle applies both to removal of historic fabric and to the introduction of new fabric. The extent of the CO's "strictness" will depend on the perceived importance of the building.

As has already been recommended, the best thing you can do is talk this over informally with your CO, and ask for guidance.

 

[DaveBrigg]

Hi Beka - welcome to the forum.
There is no 'rule book' for Conservation Officers, so what you are allowed to do will be up to his or her individual judgement. At the back of their mind they will be thinking about what is best for the building, within its setting.
In your favour is the the fact that leaving a building empty for a long period of time often leads to serious damage as either rain or vandals get in. Almost as bad is the property being bought by an unsympathetic developer who may cause the CO headaches by not completely following the guidance given, or appeal the decisions. If your approach is that you want to make this into a family home whilst still preserving as much of the integrity of the building as you can, and you ask the CO for guidance rather than presenting a list of demands, you may well be welcomed with open arms.
Our CO, who may or may not be typical, was happy for the house to be rewired and central heating fitted, the first on grounds of safety and the second because he felt that without central heating, no-one was likely to want to live in it. We tried to fit the heating sympathetically, which meant running the downstairs pipework along the walls rather than damaging the floorboards, but since it had to be replastered anyway, this was not a problem. The upstairs floorboards had to come up for the rewiring, so the heating pipes were fitted at the same time.
The advice we were given about kitchens is that since they can easily be taken out again, we were free to do what we wanted, as long as it didn't involve damage to the house structure. Fitting cupboards, a dishwasher and wall lights should not be too much of an issue. Siting the external vent for a cooker hood may need more thought and discussion. Likewise the plumbing. Changing the bath and WC is unlikely to be a problem; putting a new waste stack on the outside of the building could be something that needs discussion.
The best thing, as has been already mentioned, is to ring the CO for a chat. Listings are important, but they shouldn't put you off buying before you have found out what you can do.

 

[Nemesis]

'The owners have said the frontages were the reason for the listing'

Well, that's a misunderstanding many make, but it's not likely to be the full story. There's more to listing a building than that. Another thing to consider is that there are some pretty terrible conversions of mill and other industrial buildings around, which have robbed the simplicity of character by trying to make them into bijou domestic residences. We've had some horror pics posted here in the recent past of what not to do! So try to make any insertions such as kitchens and bathrooms low impact and suitable to the style of building. Overdone and overfussy would be very wrong.