Buying a property without LBC for alterations?

[BethMcNally]

Hi,

We're looking at buying a gorgeous timber framed 15th century Grade II* listed house... and we've just had the survey back. Our surveyor is absolutely brilliant and has raised several alterations that he suspects do not have listed building consent. There's a double glazed window hidden at the back, two velux roof lights and a whole bathroom (!) where a staircase used to be that he thinks are dubious. The double glazed window I can replace if it's a problem, but the bathroom worries me. Has anyone come across this sort of problem before? Is it possible to get insurance against having to rip the whole thing out and rebuild the staircase...? Is it possible to get retrospective LBC? Any advice much appreciated!

Thanks for your help,


Beth

 

[Baron de Gynes]

I think there can be an indemnity clause built into your Insurance Policy. We have Elite Home Insurance arranged through Lark (as a link with the Listed Property Owners Club) and I think there is such a clause.

However; when the previous owners of our house purchased it, lots of works had been done in the 80s :shock: for which LBC wasn't sought. Retrospective consents were obtained in 2005, so I should imagine it is still possible. If you can wait, and don't mind things being held up, it may be something that you would want your vendor to arrange, either that or ask for a sizeable reduction and gamble on getting consents at a later date, if that's possible.

Several (most... probably all) members on here are far more knowledgeable than I, including a Conservation Officer who often checks in.

Oh, and before anyone else asks; we will need pictures. Without pictures, it doesn't exist. :lol:

 

[CliffordPope]

I have read that you have to be very careful with indemnity insurance to ensure that the terms have been complied with.

It is important that the work was not the subject of a rejected application, that the local authority has never attempted enforcement, and is totally unaware of the work. Also I understand you have to have a survey to confirm that the works would have been up to standard so could have been approved had application been made. Insurance does not cover the cost of rectifying defective work.
Some suspiciously cheap indemnities only cover the legal costs of defending an action, not the actual rebuilding costs if you lose.
Insurance for a listed building is much more expensive because there is no limit to the liability period.

 

[Flyfisher]

If such insurance does not cover the cost of rectification if the local council decided to enforce it, then I'd consider the policy to be almost worthless as rectification is likely to be where all the cost is.

The big question is whether the unauthorised works have adversely affected the property to the extent that the local council feel it is worth their own time and money attempting to get the works reversed and that, I reckon, is anyone's guess.

Perhaps the only safe thing would be to obtain estimates for the cost of reversing the unauthorised works and deduct it from the offer price? I doubt the vendors would accept such an offer, but if the alternative is to be living in constant fear of a knock on the door from the local council then it doesn't bode well for being a happy home. Sometimes it's best to just walk away.

 

[tobydog]

I would also add to the list of likely Indemnity Insurance conditions and say that you, as the potential new owner of the property, need to be unaware of any illegal alterations that could give rise to a claim under the policy. Due to your surveyor being "absolutely brilliant", he's now made you aware of areas of the building that he thinks are non-compliant and therefore you've somewhat shot yourself in the foot regarding the staircase and bathroom, and anything else he has raised in the survey. A great survey can turn out to be a double edged sword!

 

[noj]

I guess the first course of action is to see if the vendors can provide proof of consent?

If they can't then either your negotiating position is MUCH better or you can make an informed decision to walk away...

Edit: I believe that now the question has been raised it's not an insurable option (at any reasonable premium anyway)

 

[Flyfisher]

A great survey can turn out to be a double edged sword!

Yes, I remember a similar situation with chancel liability. If the liability was unknown then it was possible to obtain insurance but if investigated and found to be present then insurance was not available!

 

[Keith Bowman]

Surely the first thing to find out is when the building was listed and whether the work was done before or after?

 

[88v8]

If you are really keen on the house... as has been suggested, obtain a quote for undoing the work, then say to the vendors that if they don't knock at least that off the price you'll shop them to the Council.

Ivor :twisted:

 

[Flyfisher]

Ouch! :lol:

Though now you mention it, talking to the local council CO is probably the best way to get a conclusive answer (or as near as possible) about whether the council would take any enforcement action regarding these particular unauthorised alterations.

Also, if the OP has any plans for future alterations, then speaking to the local CO about their plans for the property, before purchase, is a generally good thing anyway.

 

[garnett]

As a CO I am always very sceptical about listed building indemnity insurance.

Our powers are draconian. With a II* building you will also be having input from Historic England. Unauthorised works are punishable by a fine of up to £20,000 and 6 months in prison. It is criminal legislation. I am not sure how you indemnify yourself and particularly the previous owner and builder who carried out the works. If that was possible, surely we would get indemnity for other criminal offences by paying for an insurance policy in case you got caught?

My normal practise in a case like this is to get a conservation accredited architect to look at the building. Using their experience, they create an application for LBC that I can approve. That may be by providing improvements to the building to offset the harm done or reinstatement. This is then allowed for in purchase price of the building.

If you pull out now, surely the agent and the seller is legally bound to disclose that this issue has been raised?

Garnett

 

[Flyfisher]

Surely a criminal case could only be (fairly) brought against the actual perpetrator rather than the current owner?

It seems perfectly reasonable, to me, for a new purchaser to attempt to insure themselves against any costs arising out of the previous owner's illegal actions, though I'd agree that such insurance would probably not be valid in cases where it is already known, or perhaps suspected, that unapproved alterations have been made.

As a CO, do you come across such situations very often? Would you generally encourage potential buyers to contact their CO before purchasing a listed property?

 

[Zebra]

What do the vendors say about these dubious areas, Beth?

 

[xanthe]

Our C16th timber framed cottage had a number of alterations that were done without LBC.

I had the CO come out and go round the property with me a week after the survey. It was great - I sussed him our and knew that potentially we could work well together, learnt lots of fun stuff about the house and given that we plan to rectify all the sins in the course of repairing the place, he said that he would not be asking for action to be taken.

I recently sent a long email detailing all my current bits of work and had a nice reply back saying he was very happy with what I was up to and to keep him posted and take lots of photos as he'd like a set for the files.

I would ask your CO out to the house and see what happens, you may be able to get an agreement like mine.

 

[Keithj]

That sounds very like my CO. Helpful, came up with some excellent suggestions, then said "Get on with it, send me photographs".

The interesting part was that there is no record of what had already been done to the house when it was listed - hence such features as double glazing are deemed to be "pre-listing". We've played it straight since we've been here, but we kept the double glazing.

 

[mims&pip]

When we were buying our last house we had an offer accepted on a rambling, rural Grade 2 house in Wiltshire that had some very dubious looking alterations, including an unfinished extension that was extremely out of character *

We made numerous attempts to contact/engage the assistance of the relevant CO with no success whatsoever which was rather disappointing. In the end we walked away - not as a result of this as it happens but due to some new builds going up that would have ruined the lovely view over open countryside - and purchased a non-listed, but equally interesting period project that we restored appropriately.

I appreciate COs are busy people, but the total lack of acknowledgement was poor IMHO......I'm sure this was the exception though, rather than the rule :wink:

Hope you have more success OP!

Mims x

* However, not in a glass box/21st century style, but more incredibly ugly and built on the cheap

 

[Carol]

I agree with pip&mims, these days it is much more difficult to get a CO out before purchase, they all seem very overstretched. In this county, you have to pay for pre-application planning advice now, although our local office were very helpful in a recent application. I would be very wary of buying somewhere with a lot of very clearly unauthorisable work.

 

[Carol]

Sorry, double post! Is anyone else getting error messages when posting?

 

[88v8]

No
No

 

[masochists-r-us]

We had this when we bought our house 8 years ago. The property had undergone a programme of unapproved 'modernisation' and there was a UPVC window on the front elevation (now replaced with something much more suitable and with LBC).
Our solicitor sought from the local authority acknowledgment that the previous owners had carried out the work and confirmation that they would not attempt to prosecute us for it. He got this from them so we went ahead with the purchase and never had any problems.