Buying a property with UPVC without LBC

[BristolLofts]

I'm currently in the process of buying a flat within a Grade II listed building, where the vendor has previously installed UPVC windows without receiving proper listed buildings consent. I've spoken with the local CO in confidence about it and they have somewhat put my mind at rest about the potential need to rectify it at some point in the future. I had always intended to replace the UPVC windows with period sashes in the somewhat near future, so the fact that they didn't have LBC just hastened in my mind the requirement for me to rectify this sooner rather than later.

I have been offered an indemnity, which in my mind covers me in the short term, and once the issue with the windows became apparent it seems that my mortgage company also require this to be in place to cover the potential risks to them. I've also spoken to a local joiner and he has told me that at most it should cost £2k per window to put right, and there are only three windows that are affected and in the grand scheme of things £6k doesn't seem like a lot for some nice period windows. A number of the neighbouring properties which are also listed also have UPVC windows, and I've searched the local planning listings and can see no record of any of them having proper LBC. All of the successful planning applications filed for the row have required single glazing be installed so I'm pretty sure that when I seek LBC I will be required to install single glazed units.

I am due to exchange contracts on Friday, and today it has also transpired that the vendor did not seek permission of the management company prior to replacing the windows, and will need to seek their consent retrospectively. This is also quite a concern as they could potentially ask that they be changed back whenever they like as presumably as the freeholder the windows technically belong to the management company and not the vendor.

My plan was that I would contact the CO once I am ready to arrange the windows being replaced with those more in-keeping with the building, and this was the suggestion when I had a discussion in confidence. I understand as soon as I do this the indemnity will become invalidated, but if this is a requirement of my mortgage company then would the act of contacting the CO get me in trouble with my mortgage provider?

My conveyancer has never come across any instance where anyone has replaced period windows with UPVC without seeking LBC in the past, and so this is new territory for them and for me also, and I suppose I'm hoping for some reassurance that I'm doing the right thing in continuing with this. Everyone says that you need to develop a good relationship with your CO and I'm just worried that this makes it difficult to achieve that as I'm not able to speak to them about the issue without invalidating the indemnity.

Am I doing the right thing by proceeding with the sale, the vendor is all of a sudden pushing to exchange contracts as soon as possible and I'm fearful of what else I have been misled about. The TA6 form was incorrectly completed in a few areas; not in a conservation area, not known if listed, no windows replaced by the vendor. I'm a little worried at what else might be being hidden from me. Any reassurances you can give me that I'm not crazy for still proceeding would be much appreciated!

 

[MatthewC]

I'm sure a CO or two will be along soon to give you some decent advice on this. Have you seen this recent thread http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15274 on almost the same subject? My view is that, if the cost of the replacement does not worry you, then you don't have a problem as far as the windows go - I very much doubt that anyone is going to take you to court or make you do things in a silly hurry.

However, this does concern me a bit:

the vendor is all of a sudden pushing to exchange contracts as soon as possible and I'm fearful of what else I have been misled about. The TA6 form was incorrectly completed in a few areas; not in a conservation area, not known if listed, no windows replaced by the vendor. I'm a little worried at what else might be being hidden from me.

I had that issue once on a leasehold flat and ended up pulling out of the purchase as it was a minefield. The vendor failed to provide recent accounts for the leaseholders' company and wouldn't answer clear and simple questions. As in your case, they also made obvious mistakes on the TA6 and, as you say, if they do that then what else is there? Check everything that could cost a lot of money. I found the thing that they were hoping I wouldn't see which was that there was a proposal for some extensive external renovations, and we would have been paying a disproportionate amount for that (it was one of the larger flats and the structure of the leaseholders' company gave us a disproportionate number of shares, and they wanted to pay for the renovations according to the number of shares each had). I was being pushed by everyone - the estate agent said "buy it and sort it out later" which was one of the most stupid bits of advice I have ever had!

Go at your speed and tell them that to do this at the vendor's speed will require a price reduction to cover the odd things that you are worried about. If they are evasive and don't answer questions then don't be afraid to pull the plug.

 

[formerly known as]

You will of course be aware that you as the incoming owner will be responsible for any unauthorised works - make sure that there are no further unauthorised works and that there is no outstanding enforcement notice/s on the property

I assume that you have negotiated down on the property price?

Make an application for the renewal of the offending joinery as soon as possible - a local authority will not go down the enforcement route if you are demonstrating that you are addressing the situation (which to date has not been addressed by the local authority)

Basically, engage with the process and don't panic.

 

[skier-hughes]

However, this does concern me a bit:

the vendor is all of a sudden pushing to exchange contracts as soon as possible and I'm fearful of what else I have been misled about. The TA6 form was incorrectly completed in a few areas; not in a conservation area, not known if listed, no windows replaced by the vendor. I'm a little worried at what else might be being hidden from me.

That would be of grave concern to me as well, I'd take a step back, breath and investigate now before completing.

 

[Flyfisher]

I agree. I would confront them and/or their solicitor with these issues and ask them to explain themselves. The manner of their response might be revealing in itself.

As I understand things, it is the current owner of a listed property who is liable for any corrective works that may be necessary in the future, regardless of who might have done unauthorised works in the past, so it's prudent to be very aware of what you are taking on.

 

[BristolLofts]

Thanks for the words of wisdom.

Beyond the windows there don't seem to be any alterations to the property to be concerned about. There are not really any significant period features remaining and this is also the case in other older pictures of the property before the vendor bought it.

The vendors attitude is what puzzles me most, when it first became apparent that the windows had been replaced without LBC their solicitors refused to acknowledge this for around 3 weeks before they eventually came to accept that they needed to offer an indemnity. When they eventually offered an indemnity they sent me some cheap policy which covered my mortgage company and nobody else for the potential fall in value of the property, I refused this policy and requested a reduction of £3k on the basis that the policy was wholly inadequate and that would cover approx 50% of the cost of replacing the windows, it was at the stage that I asked for a reduction that they started pushing the process forwards and chasing me every day for responses to correspondence which hadn't even yet been forwarded to me by my conveyancers. They then sent a more comprehensive policy which does offer some protection, and then immediately started chasing for an exchange date within a very short time period, when the vendors solicitor has consistently been responsible for slowing down the sale process.

I had already had a reduction at an earlier stage in the process, where I got £4k off for being misled about the ownership of the communal garden area. I had assumed she was pushing for an exchange because she was not prepared to reduce the price further. It transpired that it was only on Friday that my conveyancers learned of the fact that the vendor did not receive permission from the management company to replace the windows, which was the same day that they sent me a snotty email asking to exchange contracts no later than Monday! 72 hours later! This was the first mention of an exchange date from them, when I had requested one in the past on a number of occasions.

I had, perhaps generously, assumed that this had been some sort of mistake on the vendors part, but as I read over the documents again I realised that she must have known, at the very latest when she came to complete the TA6 form, that the replacement of the windows would have required LBC, and admitting on the form that the windows had been replaced would have alerted me to it. So the most troubling thing is that when she realised this she chose to lie about it, rather than face up to what she had done.

My main concern is that I have requested the management company minutes and been told, well they keep telling me this is N/A. I appreciate that not every management company keeps minutes, or even hold regular meetings but some sort of discussion must go on, if even solely by email and as far as I'm concerned I should be privy to this.

While the cost of a few thousand to replace the windows doesn't overly concern me the building does need some stonemasonry work done, and I currently have no visibility over the potential costs of this, the only correspondence I've seen relates to emails arranging previous works done to the property, but I have not been shown any of the correspondence between the management company themselves, the latest financials I've seen were from the March 2014 accounts. I had previously accepted their response that their was no significant building work planned, but in light of the lies over the windows I'm seriously starting to question the vendors honesty.

I've literally just this moment noticed that the reserve fund is also stated to be £0 on the Leasehold Property Enquiries form. In a building where all of the owners pay an annual service charge I can't really see how this could be the case, surely this should be the amount of cash they currently hold in reserve?

The complication is that the market here is currently very much a sellers one, and there is a scarcity of similar properties in the local area otherwise I probably would have dropped out long ago. I just help but feeling that the vendor isn't behaving rationally, and can't work out if that is an indicator that there is something else that she's trying to hide from me or if she just wants everything to get finalised.

I'm currently waiting on their response regarding the retrospective consent from the management company, as presumably they could be appalled about the Upvc windows and ask that they be replaced immediately. I'm guessing this is unlikely to happen, but she seems like a prickly character so I wouldn't be entirely surprised if she had rubbed some of the management company up the wrong way.

 

[livias]

It does seem a very tricky situation and I can see that in a sellers market you do not want to walk away too hastily. Mind you, it is perfectly reasonable to make steady progress and the pushing to complete by yesterday sounds like bullying to me at the very least.

How about you speak to the other owners in the same block? They should have experience of the management company and would be able to give you some low down perhaps? I have no experience of management companies but I too would want to see some paperwork. If they are a real company then you should be able to order the accounts online. Whether that would help I don't know, so I will shut up now being out of my experience zone

Check the listed building description to make sure that there is nothing mentioned in it which has disappeared / needs urgent repair

 

[MatthewC]

Yes, speak to other residents. That was what gave me the understanding of the purchase that I pulled out of (see above) and I was very grateful to the chap who spilled the beans! I then went and bought in another (more expensive) leasehold flat which was pretty well-run but even there I had some issues, principally with the freeholder's solicitors but also with the management company who were basically residents but still decided things without reference to the other residents. I would expect the freeholder (via solicitors) to be the ones more annoyed by the failure to ask permission, more than the management company.

Previous (for three years?) management company accounts and annual meeting minutes are a must - if they have not been provided you really should dig your heels in further - even in a seller's market. As you say, there really must be some reserves unless they have just done a major restoration or something.

I have to say that I don't intend ever to buy a leasehold property again, but the idea of a listed leasehold property is even less attractive to me.