bulging walls and ceilings

[shobo]

Hi
I've always been interested by the bulges in the walls and ceilings of very old properties - I assume that it is due to the olden days lath and plaster, and the tendency of these to shift and deform with time, and not having been straight from day 1.
Now that I am close to buying a listed property with such walls, can I assume that it would be very expensive to get a specialist contractor in to rebuild the laths and to lime plaster over them ? Would the listed building inspector insist that the olden days methods are used ?
Some houses of that vintage have very smooth square walls and ceilings - would it be correct to assume in general that their walls and ceilings were modernised before the building was listed, or is it the case that the listed building inspector permits ceilings and walls to be modernised ?
Many thanks

 

[Pennyviz]

It does depend to a certain extant upon the individual CO, but in general anything other than repairs need listed building consent, and generally they insist upon same/original materials being used. I don't think they would be keen on 'modernising' for the sake of it.

Penny

 

[livias]

Some houses of that vintage have very smooth square walls and ceilings - would it be correct to assume in general that their walls and ceilings were modernised before the building was listed, or is it the case that the listed building inspector permits ceilings and walls to be modernised

Or they just did it without telling the conservation officer

I don't understand why people want to spend over the odds to buy an interesting old house and then throw much of it into a skip (I am not getting at you ... just a general observation)

 

[bobby spray]

It depends on the listing of your house and how willing you are to adhere to the (sometimes nonsensical) rules.
I had a few lumps and bumps (some rather large) in my own house when I moved in. I had them all repaired. What’s deemed as a historic feature in a 17th century thatched cottage may be considered lack of maintenance in a grand villa. Generally the plaster either delaminates (top coat from bottom coat) or the nibs break off from the laths causing sagging. Unless you live in a very important house, I would go ahead and repair in as sympathetic a manner as your budget allows. I had no one locally who works with lime plaster and my house is only in a conservation area (not specifically listed). No one will notice a patch when it’s painted. Unless you are one of the top listings you’ll be unlikely to be denied a reasonable repair. Houses are meant to be lived in – not museums.

 

[Zebra]

Is it timber frame? It could be bulging because the frame has shifted, not just because the plaster has come away from the laths.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've always been interested by the bulges in the walls and ceilings of very old properties - I assume that it is due to the olden days lath and plaster, and the tendency of these to shift and deform with time, and not having been straight from day 1.

Some more details about the construction of the property would be helpful. As Zebra rightly says, if it is timber-frame then it's possible (probable?) that the frame itself has moved over time, causing any attached lath-and-plaster to have moved - and 'buckled' - with it. Also, as previously mentioned, nibs can break off, layers can delaminate plus - if the walls/ceilings have been subject to high levels of damp - the nail fixings can rust away. Again, all possible causes for plaster movement and it can be surprising how resilient haired lime plaster can be to such movement. But the common factor is the time over which such changes occur rather than not being straight from day 1.

I don't subscribe to the idea that old plasterwork was 'lumpy and bumpy' and it seems disrespectful to the craftsmen of old to think it was. It is not particularly difficult to fix laths to walls and ceilings to create a perfectly flat surface for the plaster and it is not particularly difficult to then apply smooth and level plaster. Given that today's tools and materials for lath and lime plaster are pretty much the same as they've always have been, I can't see why period plasterers were not just as capable of doing a good a job as similarly experienced plasterers of today.

Now that I am close to buying a listed property with such walls, can I assume that it would be very expensive to get a specialist contractor in to rebuild the laths and to lime plaster over them ? Would the listed building inspector insist that the olden days methods are used ?

Much will depend on the nature of the listed property and the condition of the walls - the responsible Conservation Officer (listed building inspector or 'CO') is really the only person who can give definitive answers. Personally, I'd say that if the walls are sound, albeit with some bulges, then they should be left alone. If the walls are not sound (for any of the above reasons) then they should be repaired using the same materials as the original, i.e. lath and plaster. As for the expense, it's likely to be more expensive than dot-and-dabbing some plasterboard plus a skim of 'pink' but it need not be horrendously so. Also, if you have some DIY inclinations you could fairly easily do most of the preparation work yourself, e.g. removing the failed areas of plaster and fixing new laths ready for someone else to do the plastering, the accuracy of which is not super critical to the finished result (within reason of course!). You could also apply the first coat of plaster, which is less critical in terms of finish, and leave the final coat to an experienced person. In my experience, finding the right people is more of an issue than the actual cost of the work.

Some houses of that vintage have very smooth square walls and ceilings - would it be correct to assume in general that their walls and ceilings were modernised before the building was listed, or is it the case that the listed building inspector permits ceilings and walls to be modernised ?

Again, it depends on what you mean by 'modernised' but if you mean 'very smooth square walls and ceilings' then I'd say your assumption is certainly not correct because there are many period properties with original plastered walls that are 'very smooth and square'. Furthermore, even when such walls are not original to house, they may still be extremely old in their own right. The main part of our house is oak timber frame, built around 1550 with wattle-and-daub infill. Like many such properties the timber frame has moved considerably, probably within the first 50-100 years as it 'settled down'. However, many rooms have lath-and-plaster walls that are perfectly smooth and square (well, as 'square' as a sloping ceiling allows ) and this was achieved by fixing a 'sub frame' of battens to the original oak frame to allow a perfectly flat layer of laths to be fixed and then lime plastered for a perfectly smooth and square finish. This was undoubtedly a fairly drastic modernisation at the time it was done, though that time was hundreds of years ago.

So, to answer your final question, the CO will likely allow ceilings and walls to be repaired or rebuilt (if necessary) using appropriate materials and methods and if the work is done correctly the end result will be a 'smooth and square' (unless you take very specific steps to ensure it isn't!). The work itself will be 'modern', in the sense of only recently being done, but that is not the same thing as suggesting that 'smooth and square' automatically means 'modern'.

 

[a twig]

I ended up with springy bumps in the walls - as some of the laths had split around the nails, so were no longer actually being held to anything...

Sorting that needed removal of plaster right back to the lath, old laths out, new ones in, and patching...

I should have taken the whole section back to bare "partition", repaired all the lath, and re-plastered properly, but that would have been a pain in the nadgers, and I'm on a pregnancy induced deadline now so I only did the really bad ones, and left those that weren't too springy...

Elsewhere on the stone walls I only bother sorting bulges out etc if the plaster has actually properly blown, otherwise I've got bigger fish to fry!

 

[plasticpigeon]

You would need the blessing of the conservation officer. Please don't just do it, even if you could get away with it, it isn't the right thing to do. I'm not keen on bendy walls, especially in a house where they were once straight, but after getting most of my house replastered due to much of the lime plaster ending up collecting in bulges at the base of the walls, where the paper is caulked miraculously strongly to the skirtings, and knowing the dust and disruption that repair causes, I might be tempted to leave it if it isn't literally falling off.

 

[MikeG]

.....It depends on the listing of your house and how willing you are to adhere to the (sometimes nonsensical) rules...........

No it doesn't. This is a misunderstanding of how the Listing system works. If your house is Listed, all of it is Listed, full stop. I'd also suggest that if you don't understand the rules (clearly you don't) you're not in a great position to declare them nonsensical.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Bulging walls and ceilings are lovely. Please don’t waste your money getting them made straight! They probably started off straight, but they’re telling the story of their many decades watching this crazy world revolve. They’re a rare and lovely thing to own - enjoy.

 

[88v8]

Bulging walls and ceilings are lovely.They probably started off straight, but they’re telling the story of their many decades watching this crazy world revolve. They’re a rare and lovely thing to own - enjoy.

+1

 

[Flyfisher]

I agree. The dilemma, I think, is what to do when such a wall or ceiling has failed beyond repair.

 

[JoceAndChris]

It IS difficult FF. I had this decision with my roof which was failed and charmingly wonky Swithland Slate! I had the whole lot stripped off, 40% more antique Swithlands brought in and a very very skilled team of craftsmen redo it keeping some of the quirks and undulations. They made a fabulous job of it with the only downside being the 60k bill

Still, it should last several lifetimes.

Plaster can be pinned back. My dining room ceiling was a patchwork quilt of broken fragments, on reed, pretty much every plasterer said it had to go. But it was repaired with lime and looks very good, really, still very bulging and wonky but I love that it’s the original Georgian ceiling. That was about the same price as a new ceiling, well, maybe £100-£200 more. But it felt like the right thing to do.