Building Regs require replacing original sash glass?

[jsmac]

Hello all,

We are having the Victorian sash windows and leadlights in a front bay window restored. There are four sash windows and they are each about 50cm x 140cm.

The glazier who is a local expert working with leadlights has given us a quote to restore and rebuild the leadlights above each of the sashes with new lead came and remove and restore the eight sashes. However, he has told us that in order to comply with building regulations the glass in the four lower sashes needs to be replaced with 4mm toughened safety glass as they are less than 800mm from the floor.

We are loath to replace the glass because it is original but are wondering whether we in fact don't have a choice. The sashes need restoring but other than perhaps one of the lower sashes they don't appear to need rebuilding. The timber is solid but decades of paint and non-use have left them in a poor state.

What are your thoughts, PPUKers? It would be tragic to replace perfectly good 150-year old glass with modern glass and so I would welcome any ideas on how we can sidestep this seemingly onerous regulation.

Many thanks.

Scott

 

[noj]

Regs only apply if glass is replaced - new glass has to comply - and then you need a FENSA certificate too.

Keeping the original glass in the original place (whatever is done to the frame) is fine - at least that's my understanding.

 

[MikeG]

Glass in leaded lights is normally deemed to comply with the regs in regard to safety glass, because it is in small panes. Don't take any notice of your glazier. If it were a single big sheet of glass, he would be right, but Building Control have always interpreted the regs to allow the small panes of glass to comply. The regulations are there to prevent someone crashing through the window hurting themselves, and if anyone crashed through a leaded light window, the panes would just drop out of the cames onto the floor, leaving no nasty shards. I've had this twice in my own house, as well as a number of times in client's projects, and so am quite familiar with this scenario.

Here is the actual regulation:

And here is the Guidance to the Regulation. This is the stuff that most people think of as the regs: it isn't. If you can show compliance with the above in another way, then the guidance doesn't need to be followed, but that doesn't apply this time, as what you are proposing is explicitly covered by the Guidance:

Note N1.04

See 1.2b

And there it is, plain as day. You are allowed to use the ordinary glass you were proposing using.

 

[jsmac]

Thank you both for your replies.

I have attached a photo of the bay in question. The glass that the glazier is telling us that needs to be replaced are the panes in the four lower sashes (each being a single sheet of glass about 50 x 60cm). Mike - do I understand you correctly then that the glazier is in fact obliged to replace these panes of glass?

He will repair and rebuild the leadlights using the original glass and replace any broken or cracked panes with glass as similar in likeness as the originals (in the photo you can just about see where they've bowed and become distorted where the lead came has failed).

It is one of four bays in the house so we want to ensure that we get this first restoration work done correctly and as sympathetically as possible.

Thanks again.

 

[MikeG]

Ah, right. That would have saved me some work! So would reading your post carefully....

No, he should do the repairs as requested, but is under no obligation (that I know of) to replace the main panes, whether or not they are in compliance with the current regs. If, however, the glass was broken and needed replacing, then you would need to replace it with glass that complies with the current regs.

 

[jsmac]

Great. That is what I thought but it is really helpful to have my understanding of the regs corroborated.

We did have one pane broken before we completed on the property and that has been replaced with 4mm safety glass. This I completely understand but hacking out and replacing original glass strikes me as an unnecessary intervention. Not to mention an unnecessary expense.

For the record, I'm pleased that you provided the relevant building regulation references. Thank you for that.

 

[Zebra]

When he says that " in order to comply with building regulations the glass in the four lower sashes needs to be replaced with 4mm toughened safety glass " could it be that what he means is that if you were to aim to comply with building regulations, and were to want a compliance certificate, he would have to make those changes? I believe that there is no obligation for a repair to comply. Does the wording suggest that he is not willing to take on the work unless you have those panes replaced?

 

[plasticpigeon]

I agree with others, I don't think there is any obligation to replace existing glass with safety glass unless it is broken and needs to be replaced. I have restored a few sashes and it is an awkward job. If your sashes have many years of old paint on them that need stripping, then it is a horrid job as it is hard to use a heat gun as there is a risk of the glass breaking. It is easier in this circumstance to just smash all the glass out, strip, paint and reglaze. However it is the lazy approach and you loose the lovely old wobbly glass. 4mm glass will also make the windows heavier so the weights will no longer balance so it is a bad idea for many reasaons. Please don't smash the glass. Personally I wouldn't trust someone who suggested that to do anything!

 

[jsmac]

We haven't yet asked the glazier whether he is happy to do the work on the understanding that we want the glass preserved. I am expecting that he will be given the enthusiasm he showed for the old glass and leadlights when he visited the property. We are hoping that he is just showing due diligence to building regs and would prefer to restore the sashes with the original glass intact.

That said, we have no intention of replacing the old glass. The light in the rooms through the bay windows and the fact that all the original sashes have survived intact is one of the reasons we were so taken with the house.

Thank you again to everyone who has confirmed that replacing the original glass is both unnecessary in both a restoration and building regulations sense.

I'll keep you posted...

 

[88v8]

If any of the original glass is lost, after the glazier has finished, take out the nasty new glass and replace it with this
http://www.tatra-glass.co.uk/cylinder_glass.php

If you're not confident cutting glass, take the sheet to (another) glazier.

Easy to do while the putty is wet, and no one will ever know.

Ivor

 

[paulc]

As I understand it, you can make a like for like repair without having to comply with current regs. Only if the window was being replaced would you need to fit toughened glass in the critical areas.

As an alternative to toughened glass, you can get a clear film to stick over the original glass. One example would be: www.windowfilm.co.uk/residential/safety

 

[MikeG]

If any of the original glass is lost, after the glazier has finished, take out the nasty new glass and replace it with this
http://www.tatra-glass.co.uk/cylinder_glass.php

If you're not confident cutting glass, take the sheet to (another) glazier.

Easy to do while the putty is wet, and no one will ever know.

Ivor

Thanks for that Ivor. I'll store that away for future reference. In the past I have suggested that clients buy horticultural glass as a replacement for old hand-made glass (well, as a replacement for modern glass in an old window with hand-made glass panes). Horticultural glass at least has a few flaws in it and can pass as a sort-of OK alternative in small areas.

 

[jsmac]

Thank you both for the links.

At some point we'd like to have a leadlight window installed in the front door which will replace the rather dated 80s frosted glass that I presume was installed to replace what would have been the original glass. Tatra Glass looks like they could be a good first port of call.

This forum sure is great.

 

[Feltwell]

My sash windows in my lounge and dining room come down very low, they start about a foot up from the floor.

I don't have the original glass, but as I refurbish the sashes myself I am changing the glass to be toughened glass. The Tatra glass is lovely - and *I think* you can get it toughened - but it is eye-wateringly expensive, especially for the big sashes I have. It was just too much for me to justify, and it would have meant making 2 long trips to Tatra to get it done - one to take my sashes to them to get the glass cut (old sashes that are out-of-square - going by measurement alone would have been too risky, especially at that price!), and one to go and collect them after they'd sent them away for toughening. You can't cut toughened glass.

However, if you've got 1 sash only with new glass in, the expense is possibly worth it - get the glass and get your glazier to fit it perhaps?

As an aside, I took a sash one day to a big glass firm that does the toughening themselves and saw the process - basically the sheet goes inside a big £1m+ bit of kit that heats it very rapidly to a high temperature and then cools it down with jets of cold air very quickly, the whole process is very fast. Being there also meant I was able to ask the operator to not bother marking it with the sandblasted letters in the corner that denote that it was toughened. My understanding is that toughened glass is no more secure than ordinary glass, but if you break it rather than going into huge shards that can do serious damage to anyone unfortunate enough to fall through it, it breaks into thousands of tiny pieces which whilst you would still be cut should only give you superficial surface injuries. It's the same as car windscreens used to be before they started using laminated glass - for anyone who remembers being in a car when the windscreen broke prior to about 1980!

Given my windows are so low and I've got kids charging about, putting toughened glass in seems a sensible precaution.

My local glaziers showed me modern horticultural glass - it's so flat it's nearly as "good" as float glass now . So whilst that used to be an option to get cheap "wobbly" glass, now it's not so attractive.

 

[Feltwell]

Thank you both for the links.

At some point we'd like to have a leadlight window installed in the front door which will replace the rather dated 80s frosted glass that I presume was installed to replace what would have been the original glass. Tatra Glass looks like they could be a good first port of call.

This forum sure is great.

It's worth looking around locally for someone who does "stained glass" (as it's often incorrectly called!). It's quite popular as a "hobby that pays a bit" - I found a local chap who does commissions in his spare time, he makes tiffany type lampshades and other items to order as well as door panels. I had a leaded light window at the bottom of my stairs that was definitely original, but which was badly collapsing - he was really enthusiastic about restoring that, as he doesn't get too much restoration work. He'll also make new panels. There are various suppliers of decorative coloured glass that these people use, I had to replace some of my original glass as it was broken with as close a match as we could get.

I thought about doing the restoration myself but decided that by the time I'd had enough practice to be good at all the soldering, I'd have finished the window! Plus the kit would have cost me.

It's worth asking your glazier if he's got a putty lamp - I've got one, it's a infra-red heater that heats the putty up to soften it but not the glass, so it makes getting old glass out intact much easier. I was lucky enough to pick one up secondhand at a reasonable price (from someone on here as it happens - although via Ebay) - but that was lucky, they're a rare beast to be available for sale and they're very expensive when new.

This was the end result, the outer green glass in the top sections is all new but most of the rest is original:-



Must do something about that horrible white plastic thermostat on the wall one day, the question is what?

 

[CliffordPope]

Paint it wall colour

 

[88v8]

My local glaziers showed me modern horticultural glass - it's so flat it's nearly as "good" as float glass now . So whilst that used to be an option to get cheap "wobbly" glass, now it's not so attractive.

Original Glass have machine drawn and hand drawn wobbly glass. Albeit you don't want DG, they might let you have some. I dare say it would be more economical than Tatra.
http://www.thinsealedunits.co.uk/product/heritage/

Toughened, is also called 'burglar glass' because it's beloved by burglars.
Friend of ours had it in their patio doors (yuk) burglar smacked it and the glass fell in a thousand fragments and the burglars walked in.
Patio doors should have armoured glass, then if anyone is careless enough to walk into it they'll just bounce off.
Strange how we all managed to grow up without this H&S nonsense.

Ivor

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Strange how we all managed to grow up without this H&S nonsense.

Ivor

I fell through a glass door when I was two, nearly didn't grow up. There are good reasons for most "H&S nonsense".

 

[LadyArowana]

Strange how we all managed to grow up without this H&S nonsense.

Ivor

I fell through a glass door when I was two, nearly didn't grow up. There are good reasons for most "H&S nonsense".

Natural selection of course not being one of those good reasons :wink:

 

[MatthewC]

We haven't yet asked the glazier whether he is happy to do the work on the understanding that we want the glass preserved. I am expecting that he will be given the enthusiasm he showed for the old glass and leadlights when he visited the property. We are hoping that he is just showing due diligence to building regs and would prefer to restore the sashes with the original glass intact.

That said, we have no intention of replacing the old glass. The light in the rooms through the bay windows and the fact that all the original sashes have survived intact is one of the reasons we were so taken with the house.

Thank you again to everyone who has confirmed that replacing the original glass is both unnecessary in both a restoration and building regulations sense.

I'll keep you posted...

The issue then is whether the old glass can be removed for re-use and hence your glazier may now quote (a lot?) more, as the careful removal of old glass is a bit labour intensive (although Feltwell's putty lamp sounds like a good investment!).

If he is as good and conscientious as he sounds then I'm sure he'll be happy and skilled enough to do it, for a cost. Every time I have done this job (two more big sashes to do this year) I have taken ages getting the glass out, with a load of care and trepidation.