Builders in North Bucks with listed building knowledge?

[Nicole W]

Hi All

My husband and I have managed to get ourselves on the wrong side of our local conservation officer.

We now desperately need to get some work done and other work rectified on our listed cottage if we want our house sale to go through.

Does anyone know of any builders with listed building experience in the Milton Keynes area?

Any recommendations appreciated as our stress levels are through the roof

Thanks

Nicole

 

[Nemesis]

It's often the case that a CO will have list of contacts - have you asked?

Try 'Seeking Specialists' on this site, or call the SPAB which keeps a list of people.

It's not very likely though that someone will be able to do things at once, and also of course any further work may need LBC, which also takes time.

I'd consider also employing someone - possibly a RICS Conservation Surveyor or an architect with conservation expertise - to draw up any plans for rectification work. It does make life easier that way, although I appreciate extra fees have to be paid. Often people will have contacts with appropriate builders they use.

 

[Nicole W]

Thanks for your reply.

We're going to try and speak to the conservation officer again today. I'll have a look on the seeking specialists and will contact SPAB if the CO doesn't have any recommendations.

I fear that our house sale will fall through as will the whole chain, which is very upsetting. In some respects it's our own fault as we took bad advice and were told we didn't need LBC to do some work. But also the buyers survey has come up with issues which we knew nothing about (didn't even come up in our survey when we bought the place a few years ago). The house has been standing for over 200 years but typically two weeks before we are supposed to exchange contracts, it's all gone pear shaped.

Thanks for your advice

Nicole

 

[Nemesis]

Yes - you aren't the first to be caught out like this.

It's always best to run any work past the CO, and if he/she says no LBC is required get this in writing.

Remember too - 'like for like' repair (up to a point) doesn't need LBC.

I was looking at listed buildings descriptions in Southport yesterday, for some research, and interesting to see how many in the pictures aren't much like their listing descriptions - windows and doors altered, and in one case even demolished...

With regard to the surveyor... this is coming up more and more now, as paperwork is being required by a puchaser's solicitors for just about everything, no matter how far back, and no matter that in some cases (apart from LBC) there is no possibility of any action ever being taken.

In that case, you can buy an insurance indemnity, although it's very irritating and just lines pockets it's one way of getting round things.

It may be possible to come to some agreement with your purchaser, if the rectification work isn't too much, that the sale goes through (with some reduction of costs) and he/she gets the work done.

 

[Nicole W]

It's the 'like for like' which we fell down on. We replaced 3 windows, which were literally falling apart (a pane of glass had slipped down from the frame leaving a gap). We were told that we could replace the windows without needing LBC as we were using hardwood and the windows were virtually the same (ie only one side opened etc) and they were on the side of the house not visible from the road (we live in a conservation area). We were also told that double glazing would be OK as other cottages in our row (all listed) had it.

However we are learning a bitter lesson. Never assume a builder knows what he's talking about.

Our solicitors are currently in talks with our buyer's solicitors but they're not happy about taking the house on if there is possibility of legal action (which the CO indicated there wouldn't be).

The other frustrating thing is that we know the windows aren't/weren't original, they're from the 50s!

Annoyingly also, the buyer's surveyor came round and said there wasn't anything to worry about. Yet now we've been told we need to 'repair' the firewall adjacent to next door's property (it's a wall covered in wattle and daub in our attic) and the attic needs ventilation. If he'd told me about that on the spot we could've started doing something about it, rather than finding out about it at the last minute.

We're happy to do the work and get everything rectified. We realise we've made mistakes but our CO has coldly indicated it will take 'several weeks' for him to look at the issue, by which time the sale will have probably fallen through. Oh what a lesson!

 

[Nemesis]

Yes well - as you say, never listen to a builder! In my experience 'virtually' the same covers many sins...

Have you looked at the listing description - it may be that the buildings are listed in the main for 'group value' - which is as important as any other listing, but in my experience that does at times give a little more leeway.

The other houses may have had fifties windows or even later, and it may be that they were not considered of great historic significance and so LBC was given to replace and in that case probably no need to be concerned about DG. It's having permission which is the key here. If the others didn't have permission of course it's worth drawing the attention of the CO to that...

Do you know when the house was listed?

Legal action - no, as the new owner wasn't the person to carry out any 'illegal' works. Enforcement action - yes, possible., although I can't see what can really be enforced here - demanding rotting fifties windows be re-installed?

Not that we should in some cases decry fifties windows - all part of the history etc... but maybe they weren't really why the place was listed, and not significant.

The other things - well why can't the new owner carry out the repairs? They don't seem too onerous!

Re the CO - talk nicely again to him, grovel a lot, and then contact your local councillor, see if he or she can help hurry things along.

It doesn't sound to me that you have destroyed 'historic fabric', and you could take the line that you were maintaining the building, as a conscientious owner.

 

[Nicole W]

I see the word 'virtually' and I cringe. It's all so obvious now that we were so naive and just went along with what he said. As he lives in the same village we just thought he knew better than we did.

My husband has spoken to our CO and he's going to call us in a few days with a progress report.

The cottage was listed in 1974. We have a photograph from I think the Edwardian/Victorian times of an elegant lady standing outside our cottage. The windows were those beautiful diamond leaded ones, which I would jump at the chance to have back in!

I did mention to the CO about the other cottages having double glazing etc, but from his replies I could have just got everyone into trouble which wasn't my intention! He said he might go and check everyone else's houses to see what's been going on.

I think the CO does realise we've done our 'best' but obviously, and understandably isn't happy that we didn't go through the correct channels.

I wish that listed buildings came with a handbook so when you buy one you know exactly what you can and can't do!

 

[Juju]

Nicole, I've sent you a PM with a recommendation for a Milton Keynes builder that I've used and who has done a lot of work on listed buildings locally. I know nothing about all this but if everyone wants the sale to go through, maybe if you have some quotes for the work and drop your price accordingly, maybe your vendors will take it on? I'm a bit naive about listed buildings though but am currently trying to buy a listed house so am reading all this with interest!

 

[Nemesis]

Well, the new heritage protection regime is in theory going to address some of the difficulties owners have about knowing what is important about the buildings.

I reckon though that if the CO does go and check the other houses, and takes some action, it could prevent what is happening now to you from happening to others. They may thank you in the long term. They may have to seek retrospective permission but better now than later, and the builder may also begin to realise that he could face prosecution if he carries on doing things without the required consents in place.

In general - if in doubt, a call to the CO, and get whatever is said in writing (even a quick e-mail..) and keep it for future ref.

Yes, I can see why the CO is upset, it's his job, acting on behalf of the local authority, to administer the law and planning policy. It may be that what you have done would have been given permission if the appropriate channels had been gone through!

The difficulty is 'like for like' is so often misinterpreted - where would it end? Demolish and rebuild?

I presume you have looked up the listing description on Images of England.

While the lovely windows you describe in the picture may sadly be long gone, it may be that the replacement could have been seen as part of the history. It's a hard one for the CO, who now hasn't the chance to assess what is and isn't able to be saved, and have some formal input into what was done.

I still feel that an agreement all round that something will be done to satisfy the CO may be arranged, and the sale go ahead, even if you reduce the price a little accordingly.

The roof vents and the other stuff is pretty minor really - go buy some lime and repair! (Check with the CO first though...)

 

[Nicole W]

I'm a bit naive about listed buildings though but am currently trying to buy a listed house so am reading all this with interest!

Hi Julie

I hope you learn from my mistakes. If you want to do anything then make sure the CO is involved, even if it seems 'minor'!!

Thanks

Nicole

 

[Nicole W]

I think it would be incredibly useful to have more 'open' understanding and knowledge of what's important about the buildings. The CO did explain a few things which I had never considered before.

I do wonder about one of our neighbours who has changed his front door and has done a few other things, I don't think he got LBC for any of his works either.

I'm sure I'm one of the CO's nightmares. Not the worst by far. I don't think replacing 3 windows is too bad. We have a couple of photos of the kitchen window before it was replaced. It's totally rotten and irrepairable, so hopefully he'll be sympathetic. However he must get this all the time, which doesn't make his life any easier.

I haven't looked up the listing descripton yet, but will do in a min

So if the replacement windows could be seen as part of the history, does that not mean that our ones could be too

The CO advised us to get the other works done professionally which we will do. I've had a builder recommendation and we know another builder (not the one who did the original work) who may be good too, so I'll start making enquiries

Cheers

Nicole

 

[Nemesis]

Yes, if you can persuade the CO that the other windows were rotten, that you have installed ones which are sympathetic to the building, (and rarely is uPVC... thankfully you didn't go that route...) and upgraded so that they are of their time etc etc it could be said they are now part of the history - just best to get it all legal and agreed! But it may be that the old windows could have been retained and repaired.

As for your neighbour - well, hopefully the CO may spot what's done there too...

As for replacing three windows - it would of course all depend on the windows concerned. In your case - maybe not. In others - disaster, robbing a building of important history.

In some cases repair is difficult but not impossible...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/iloveny/minster/fire/peter_gibson.shtml


If you are buying another listed building - or even unlisted but period building - I urge you to join SPAB, use the free helpline, go on the homeowner's weekends. Very, very useful.

http://www.spab.org.uk


I think your CO is right about using a builder with historic buildings expertise, especially for the ventilation, although maybe the wattle and daub you could repair yourself? It's not hard. People here can give advice.


It's worth reading this too, although it is Jersey and not all applicable here, there's some useful info:


http://www.gov.je/PlanningEnvironment/Planning/Historic+Buildings/Policies+For+Replacing+Windows+and+External+Doors/

 

[Nicole W]

One of the windows would have been impossible to repair as the frame was so rotten the pane had slipped down and there was a gap to let the fresh air in!

The other two frames were rotten enough to be able to put your finger through them. I really don't think they were repairable, but we'll just have to hope the CO agrees.

We've now emailed the window photos to the buyer's solicitors to see if that will stop their fears that we've done something completely terrible.

There's no way we're going to undertake any of the repairs ourselves. We want to get everything absolutely right and so we'll be getting the experts in with the help of the CO.

The links were interesting, thanks.

I doubt we'd buy another listed building, although we're hoping to stay in the same area which is a conservation area and we realise there are still many restrictions in place. We'll just make sure we do things properly next time.

 

[Nemesis]

I'm sure that you will get retrospective permission - it just would have been easier if it had happened before the windows were replaced, of course!

Do let us know what happens...

 

[Nicole W]

I really hope so. I'm almost not bothered if we have to replace the windows with single glazed, it's more the whole house sale chain which is the stressy thing.

Will post when it's all over!

Thanks for all the advice

Cheers

Nicole