brick flooring

[hannahr]

Hi, we are currently in the process of restoring our house and we have uncovered a black brick floor in our 19th century cottage. it was hidden underneath layers of concrete. we want to reuse this brick flooring but are uncertain of what we need to lay this on. The floor is slanted and below the outside floor level so we need to raise this first. is it possible to put it on soil and sand with morter without the need for a lime crete floor or screed?

Many thanks.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Personally I'd be disinclined to lift a floor laid in the 19th C - unless it's pretty much perished. Bricks and stones aren't very happy with being levered up, you could cause a lot of damage to them. Why do you need to raise the floor level?

I'd always had it in my mind that we'd do major work to our undercroft section, drilling out cement mortar, knocking down cement work, hacking out cement floors and laying limecrete. But I just had a very highly regarded team of conservation builders and specialists look at it, and they said it would do more harm than good. Sometimes it's better to leave well alone.

 

[hannahr]

Thanks for your reply. We must raise the floor before it sits well below the outside ground level in both parts of the house, the kitchen is at quite a slope which isn't something that could be left and the living room suffered rather badly from damp resulting in the original flag stones being completely unusable. The bricks seem to be lifting fine in the kitchen without damage, and we will lay a completely new reclaimed floor in the living room. we just hoped we could do this on the soil bedding instead of limecrete/screed. That's how it was originally done after all! is it possible

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

Pics are always helpful... Photobucket or the like.

Are the bricks damp? If it's dry that makes a huge difference to your options. You can check by putting polythene sheet over the floor for a day or two then looking whether there's condensation beneath.
Does the house have a dpc? That can make things worse for old solid floors.

In principle, below-ground floors aren't a great idea, but if it's dry then as Jose says maybe let well alone.

Sloping is good, we like sloping. Or at least, I do.

Ivor

 

[LadyArowana]

Sloping is good, we like sloping. Or at least, I do.

Ivor

Are we still allowed to say that? Didn't Mr Clarkson get into a lot of trouble for a comment of that sort?

As regards the problem of the floor being below the outside ground level, is it possible that the exterior earth has become higher and that rather than raise the floor you might put in a French drain or lower the level somehow?

 

[hannahr]

Thanks everyone for your replies. We must raise the floor because it sits well below the outside ground level in both parts of the house - The kitchen is at quite a slope which isn't something that could be left without having to redo the stairs and find a way of balancing the kitchen cabinets/appliances/furniture etc. The bricks are all dried out - they've been left uncovered for over a month now. I will post some pictures tonight for you to see. The Living room suffered rather badly from damp resulting in the original flag stones being completely unusable sadly. The bricks seem to be lifting fine in the kitchen without damage, and we will lay a completely new reclaimed floor in the living room. We just hoped we could do this on the soil bedding rather than installing a limecrete floor/screed. That's how it was originally done after all! Is this possible?

We can't lower the outside ground level as it is a pathway around the whole house owned by highways/council unfortunately. And we are presuming the house is 19th century - we have no definite dates but are going from findings of the house. The only thing we can't find anything that would definitely date the house is when cogged eaves were used!

Thanks everyone

 

[ReidS80]

Personally I'd be disinclined to lift a floor laid in the 19th C - unless it's pretty much perished. Bricks and stones aren't very happy with being levered up, you could cause a lot of damage to them.

This. I think you'll run the risk of creating some major problems for yourself if you try lift the floor. We might be able to give better suggestions if you can post a picture.

 

[hannahr]

Sorry, little bit new to this - how do I attach my photos on here? Do I have to upload them elsewhere and HTML it?

Also, why do I need my replies approved first?

Cheers!

 

[Zebra]

You want to raise the floor level, and lay the new bricks on soil. Are you going to simply shovel a load more soil in there to raise the level?
It's possible, it would seem. Is it a good idea? Well.... The considerations might be, firstly, whether you have to comply with any Building Regulations requirements. Is the work that you're doing subject to Building Control and have you put in a Building Notice for it, meaning that you would have to comply with modern insulation requirements? You might find that redoing the entire floor of an area is subject to Building Control.
Secondly, do your walls have a dpc? If you want to raise the floor simply by using soil, you might breach the dpc, which would not be a good idea. But then if the external level is already at that height then perhaps there wouldn't be an adverse effect in that regard.
Then there is the question of breathability. The floor now is breathable, if it's just bricks on soil. So that means that moisture is escaping at a very low level, through the floor. Of course a concrete screed wouldn't be breathable, and sometimes this can lead to more moisture in the walls, as the moisture which would have escaped through the floor has nowhere else to go but into the walls.
Hard to say really, without more to go on.
What about creating a suspended timber floor, with sub-floor ventilation?

 

[hannahr]

Hi Zebra,

The house isn't subject to building control - they are completely unaware of our renovations so that side of it isn't an issue. The walls don't have DPC either - never seen enough evidence to prove it actually works other than just making bricks look horrific!

Here's some photos -

This is where we've started lifting bricks up ok

You can kind of work out the slope on this one

How much of a slope from the bottom of the stairs!

And then look what we found last night whilst digging up the living room floor....

A well!!! Anyone got any suggestions as to why this well might be in the middle of our living room?? We've tried removing as much of the bricks/rubble/stone from the well to see how deep it goes - we've got to about 4ft and it just keeps going down!

 

[LadyArowana]

Sorry, little bit new to this - how do I attach my photos on here? Do I have to upload them elsewhere and HTML it?

Also, why do I need my replies approved first?

Cheers!

If you have them on your hard drive ( but nowhere else ) then you can use the "upload attachment" feature which appears on the tab just below the "post a reply" box where you type. This suffers from a size limitation, both in terms of each picture and for the forum overall. We were recently at capacity and someone kindly deleted some of their uploads to make a bit more space, but may reach the limit again soon. To get around this it is preferable to host pix elsewhere and then click the box that says "Img" and post the link to the .jpg etc file between the square brackets that appear.

Replies are moderated until you have been a member for a little while and posted a few times simply to guard against spammers who come here to try and persuade us to buy plastic garden gnomes and fake brick cladding. Soon your messages will show straight away

 

[JoceAndChris]

Sorry to butt in with a basic question, but just in response to Zebra, does Building Control matter? Can't it just be ignored? When I got my LBC the council wrote a letter to say Building Control would apply, and why don't I use their officer. I'm just ignoring it and hoping that's the end of it.

 

[LadyArowana]

Sorry to butt in with a basic question, but just in response to Zebra, does Building Control matter? Can't it just be ignored? When I got my LBC the council wrote a letter to say Building Control would apply, and why don't I use their officer. I'm just ignoring it and hoping that's the end of it.

Not sure but maybe it's one of those grey areas where sometimes it matters and sometimes not. When my builder was working on another house in Bath and putting a balcony on their rear elevation, the whole thing was of course subject to LBC, but they had to comply with current regs as regards the height/ thickness of the handrail around the top. I remember because it caused a big problem as the thing had already been fabricated and then BC came along and said they were not happy and another piece of metal had to be put on the top.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh, how ridiculous. This is why I'm not making the phone call - I've heard such appalling tales of destruction, tastelessness and patheticness that I'm truly scared of what they might insist upon.

 

[Flyfisher]

Joce, I'm surprised you've been passed to building control for what I understand is removal of cement render and replacement with lime render. I can't see how that can be construed as structural or how it would affect the thermal performance of the building and, as far as I'm aware, those would be the main reasons to have them involved.

I made two LBC applications for roof repair/upgrading and moving a few internal walls in our 'cottage end'. BC were not involved in any of the works, even though a couple of things were structural. That was about 7 years ago and no sign of BC chasing me. For the 3rd applicAtion, for the kitchen extension, I did have BC involved as it was effective a new build to current regs. There were a couple of areas where departures from normal practice were required but BC had no problems with them ( perhaps because they share an office with our CO? ).

So, if I was in your position, I'd be ignoring BC as well as I really can't see what good they can do - not that I think they'll cause problems, just that it's simply not necessary in this case. To be fair about Milady's example, that was a serious safety issue, which is where I think BC do add serious value to a project.

Some people will say that absence of such things (and also stuff like electrical works certificates and the like) can cause problems when you come to sell. I have serious doubts about that because the sort of buyers who take on listed buildings are likely to be less concerned with paperwork and more concerned with seeing that the right things have been done, which you are clearly doing. So I wouldn't worry about it. Anyway, I'm only expecting to leave here in a box, so it won't be my problem :wink:

 

[JoceAndChris]

Well said and I feel exactly the same! I never want to sell this place!

I suppose Building Control might have wanted an insulating layer going on the house - there is an insulating form of breathable render, apparently, but my plasterer was extremely sceptical and dubious about it and want to use the traditional mix. There were a few structural things like a lintel going in and corners getting rebuilt in stone but I honestly do think they should just trust Skillies to know what they're about. Anyway I have photographed all stages of the work so if questions are asked about how and why I have evidence.

 

[Keithj]

When we replaced the 1940s concrete tiles on our roof, we were told it was a new roof therefore Building Regs applied and we would have to install 100mm of Celotex or similar for insulation.

I asked where exactly it would go. The man came to show us and realised it wouldn't. So it didn't.

 

[malcolm]

Hi Zebra,

The house isn't subject to building control - they are completely unaware of our renovations so that side of it isn't an issue. The walls don't have DPC either - never seen enough evidence to prove it actually works other than just making bricks look horrific!

Here's some photos -

This is where we've started lifting bricks up ok

You can kind of work out the slope on this one

How much of a slope from the bottom of the stairs!

And then look what we found last night whilst digging up the living room floor....

A well!!! Anyone got any suggestions as to why this well might be in the middle of our living room?? We've tried removing as much of the bricks/rubble/stone from the well to see how deep it goes - we've got to about 4ft and it just keeps going down!

We're not ignoring you - New member's posts can appear later on without being noticed.

My guess is the well earlier than the house. The bricks don't look well jointed so ought to come up without damage. It makes a lot of sense to have them straight and at a level you are more happy with.

 

[Keith Bowman]

The well: what frequently happens is that a smallish house or cottage has a well just outside the house and then someone builds an extension and fills in and covers up the well. Be very wary of trying to empty it of rubble etc - it could be 20 or 40 feet deep, there could be a void under the top few feet - there could even be dragons
Certainly there have been deaths when people start digging them out without adequate protection and precautions. A well inside the house can, of course, be made into a feature.