Breathable floors

[tumbledown]

Hi, I'm new to this forum and to period properties in general - so please go easy on me if I say something stupid or blindingly obvious!

We have just bought a grade two timber framed building which has been neglected somewhat over the last 40 or 50 years. It has cement floors, high external ground levels and cement renders both internal and external. Maybe you won't be surprised to hear we have a spot of damp in the walls and soleplate!

We are concidering lowering the ground levels outside (except for one wall as its impossible unless we dig up the pavement) and removing the concrete floors. We would like to lay flagstones or floor bricks without a Damp proof course, allowing the floor to breath. My one concern is that a builder (who says he knows about historic buildings) told us that the only problem with this is that matts and the bottom of furniture will grow mold as they will stop the passage of moisture. He said that floor areas under large furniture such as dressers would always be musty. I wonder if anyone has any experience of this or is it simply not true?

The other course of action we concidered is to simply batton the concrete floor and lay oak flooring. Although there are signs of damp in the walls, there is no evidence of any in the floors. Once again, we received mixed opinions on this one. a few people have suggested that oak flooring may not be appropriate for this type of building due to the high moisture levels. Also, it has been suggested that as the concrete floor doesn't look to have been laid very well, the DPC may not be totally effective and that floorboards would warp if any moisture is let through. do you think oak flooring is a good idea or not? Or should we stick to some form of hard flooring?

We have been advised that if we want wooden floors, we should take up the existing concrete floor and lay other one with a good DPC. It seems to us that if we are going to go to the trouble of lifting the floor we might as well go down the breathable route. As I said earlier we are looking at lowering the ground levels outside, but I'm not sure we can afford to remove all the cement and replace it with lime plaster - not at this time anyway. At least the timber frame is exposed outside and in and are not covered with cement - only the infills have cement renders.

We would appreciate peoples opinions on the various opions open to us.

 

[Anne]

You don't need a damp proof course. They may be right about not using oak though, it probably would not have been used on the ground floor originally.

Cement is not good for your building. Moisture can't get through your floor so its making it way up your walls. If you removed the cement floor you'll probably cure the damp walls, however make sure you check your gutters and that this is not the cause of the damp on the walls.

The very best thing you could do is get some real advice from someone who can see the building. I'd contact a historical buildings architect, but I'd also make sure and talk to the local CO they are full of free information and advice. Your CO will be on the side of your house and be able to offer advice as to what is best for it.

 

[tumbledown]

Thanks for the advice Anne. What do you think about the moldy/musty matts and furniture suggestion?

 

[rshartley]

We have a cottage in Norfolk with brick floors laid straight onto sand with no dpc etc. There's no sign of mustiness so far. We have put down 100% wool rugs and have avoided any man made fibres as I think they might prevent the floor breathing.

We had a builder tell us exactly the same thing by the way. It seems most builders love concrete, plastic membranes and water proof renders!

 

[tumbledown]

Thanks again for the advice. I think I will start to remove a small section of the concrete floor and see what I find - might even be the remains of a brick floor under there.

As far as lowering the ground levels outside, I'm not really sure how deep you should dig, or how wide the trench should be. Do you need to build some kind of retaining wall to stop the soil filling the void over time? Should the trench be filled with anything?

One of the walls cannot have the outside ground level lowered as it runs along a public pavement. I wonder if this wall should be injected with a chemical DPC or not? Maybe if the floor is sorted out and the wall rendered inside with lime rather than cement as it is at the moment, this will be enough to keep the damp levels at a reasonable level? At the moment the sole-plate in that wall is soaking and so rotten it needs replacing in quite a few places?

So many question .............

 

[pete]

I wonder if this wall should be injected with a chemical DPC or not?

I know that that'll be a 'not', but I'm interested to find out what, if anything, others suggest as our high external ground level is a public pavement on one side, as yours is.

- Pete

 

[tumbledown]

I decided to start to remove the interior cement render on the brick plinth below the soleplate on the wall with the public footpath on the other side. It came off really easily as the bricks underneath were so wet - releasing a very musty and damp smell. The bricks are very soft and crumbly - I don't know if they will firm up as they dry out? The bottom two or three rows are in a very sorry state - I'm not sure if there is much that can be done to firm them up and stop any further damage? I'll probably re-render them using lime once they have dried out a bit and i've managed to cure or vastly improve the damp problem. As I said, I'm planning to take up the cement floor, but there is still that pavement on the other side to deal with....

 

[tumbledown]

I wonder if this wall should be injected with a chemical DPC or not?

I know that that'll be a 'not', but I'm interested to find out what, if anything, others suggest as our high external ground level is a public pavement on one side, as yours is.

- Pete

Pete - have you tried anything as yet? Do you have the concrete floor/cement render problem, or is your wall damp with just the high ground level to contend with? I was hoping that if I cured the first two I might get away with the high ground level without doing anything else.

 

[middi]

Damp problems is a regular discussion topic on this forum and normaly instigates some interesting views and debates.

The truth really is that it can be quite difficult and frustrating to offer any direct solutions to the problem without really looking at the problem, and this is where true damp experts advisors with extensive knowledge of period buildings would be very handy.

We are always pleased to do our best to try and help.( I am anyway)

As to the high pavement outside your wall, I wonder what the council reaction would be if you tell them that thei pavement is letting in damp into your house, or better still, tell them that a french drain would be appropriate,

That would put the cat amongst the pigeons.

 

[tumbledown]

Well Middi, I'm not sure that Mis-Suffolk district Council would react at all - it has taken them 10 weeks just to register my listed Buildings Concent application, so who knows how long I will have to wait for a decision.

At the moment the house needs a lot of work and I realise the damp could be coming from many places on that particular wall. As I said, the pavement is against it; the pavement isn't very wide so does get splashed a lot; the wall has moved out at the bottom and it quite exposed so gets hit with the worst off the weather; the bargeboards are alos in a bit of a state; and as stated before, concrete floor and cement render inside; bitumin paint on the external brickwork - so, there a quite a few couses to choose from!

I really need to talk to someone who knows what they are talking about a regards restoring the timber frame along that wall. It is in a bit of a state as it has just been patched and botched with modern materials for the last forty years. but every builder I've spoken to seems to have a different take on the course of action needed. I've spoken to a couple of guys that were recomended to me, but they are booked up solid for about a year!

anyone know a good timber frame man within sticking distance of Ipswich?

 

[Gervase]

I know of one just over the border in Essex. Very good chap, too (you listening, Middi?)

 

[biffvernon]

it has taken them 10 weeks just to register my listed Buildings Concent application, so who knows how long I will have to wait for a decision.

I don't know if all Authorities are the same, but I gather they have a target time to meet, but the clock only starts ticking from the day the application is 'registered'. So delays in acknowledging and verifying the application doesn't count against the target, but thereon things move faster.

 

[middi]

Thanks Gervase, but I am ( like you are in sunny Wales! ) up to my nostrils with restoration tasks to get on with.


The thing is, Tumbledown, that your cottage most probably used to be a nice and dry living place, with the the odd horse an carriage going by and a few flock of sheep on a dirt track which was washed by rain and kept well below the floor level.
The poor cottage is being slowly swallowed up by so called " progress ". Unsimpathetic repairs and the "poor" council having to repair roads and pavements ( public liability!) by piling up one layer of cement or tarmac over another, will eventually sink the poor thing.

This will present problems to the likes of us, because we know that to stop the cottage suffocating, ideally, it should be put back the way it was intended to be.

This is not always possible and the solution would be to isolate the part of the cottage ( using modern materials I am afraid ) which is below ground level and conserve and restore above this level so normal, and as intended, breathing of the structure can continue to preserve it.

This will require a good understanding and a well done job in order to be effective.
If you have to wait to get the right builders, it may be worth it at the end.

 

[pete]

tumbledown - our first course of action is going to be to tackle the obvious causes. In this case guttering that appears to empty its contents straight on to the wall, either over the edges, or via bizarrely placed downpipes—the pavement is actually pitted along much of the length of the house from the water repeatedly falling.

There are also a few windows that appear to have inadequate ledges/drip bars, that aren't going to help matters.

We've a mixture of quarry tiles (on packed earth(?)) and concrete floors, and we're rendered too, albeit with a 'naked' few inches at the foot. (We're stone built by the way.)

- Pete

 

[tumbledown]

I was interested in a comment from someone on flagstone floors not breathing. I'd never thought about it before, but I guess not a lot of moisture can pass through stone, can it? I guess that the floor breaths through the gaps, or the lime grouting if you use any? Or am I missing something here?