Bought A Listed Building --- What To Do First...?

[Househunter]

Hello folks.

Well, after detailing my qualms about buying a Listed Building here, and the business of purchasing it here, I've finally bought it and have joined the ranks of period property owners! (As Matt said, I should probably now change my username...)

The house is a late Georgian end-of-terrace cottage, and was listed in the late 80s. The previous owner bought it in the late 90s and has done a fair bit on it, all of it without Listed Building consent (most of it thankfully in the extension, rather than in the house itself). And so now I am onto the next step of figuring out which works to do first, and which works will require Listed Building consent.

My surveyor's report was fairly positive.

He advised that the first job should be to get the windows opening (they've been painted shut), as I may need them if there is a fire! ...Plus the bathroom doesn't get much ventilation from the puny and aged extractor fan. (And it's a bit warm with them all shut!)

I'd guess next priority could be to have the electrical system checked and overhauled if necessary, given what the previous owner was like (in the process of installing a washing machine this week, I found a long green-yellow earthing cable connected to nothing)!

I think the same goes for the plumbing, too: the cellar ceiling is covered in warped plasterboard, no doubt hiding a multitude of sins. Here's a shot of the cellar ceiling, showing the previous owner's handiwork:





And so my question is which of the aforementioned works would need consent?

...Having someone to get the windows working, getting the electrics/plumbing checked and overhauled --- piping/cabling redone properly & safely etc. --- ripping out the badly installed damp/warped plasterboard in the cellar to inspect the condition of the joists & so forth, etc. (The cellar could do with ventilating, as well.)

I want to do things by the book, but I'd also like to get on with it all quickly, so if consent isn't needed for one or more of these jobs, then I could crack on with it.

I'd appreciate people's thoughts!

 

[Flyfisher]

Firstly, congratulations on the new (well old!) house and on the 'fairly positive' surveyor's report.

As for thoughts, here goes:

1. Getting the windows working (opening) - basic maintenance/repair, so no LBC required (as long as it doesn't involve actually replacing the windows!)

2. Electrical checks - basic maintenance/possible repairs, so no LBC required

3. Plumbing - same as electrics, as long as any changes do not significantly impact on the structure of the house (eg drilling through priceless features!)

4. Ripping out damp/warped plasterboard - basic maintenance/repair, so no LBC required. It could be argued that without LBC it should strictly be replaced like-for-like . . . in which case it could also be argued that it will be in due course but you just haven't got around to it yet :wink:

In short, I would be happy to get on with all those jobs as described without LBC because I can't see how any of them would affect the basic structure or character of the house.

 

[Abi Cott]

I've so far:

Had 3 windows removed, taken to pieces and rotten timber replaced and then put back. LBC not required.

Had a complete rewire. LBC not required.

Discussed plumbing with my CO. Internal changes are fine. New holes through the exterior wall would require LBC and may not receive it unless sensitively placed. This was specifically in regards to installing an extractor fan.

I've also removed plasterboard from a partition wall. After emailing my CO some photos this was deemed repair and maintenance but it was touch and go.

Every property is different. Only your CO can really call it, if you can get a good relationship with them it's well worth your while.

In my experience, in my area, they love home owners that want to do the right thing.

 

[Pennyviz]

Congratulations on your purchase!

Most of what you describe is as Abi says repair so no consent needed.

You haven't mentioned roofs, gutters, drains - double check all of these, as these wold be my total priority - at least I'm guessing you are mains drainage?

Plumbing - double check the boiler - although mine was working, it turns out it dated from 1975, so by replacing it I was able to manage when it was done and the newer model is theoretically more economical.

Good luck!

Penny

 

[88v8]

Oooh, a cellar with a fireplace. The most exciting thing in our cellar is a sump pump.

If you have ch, check that there is adequate water treatment in the system.

Btw, old boilers... that are working well... are a precious asset. With their robust cast-iron heat exchangers and absence of electronic gizmos they will go on and on, and long outlast supposedly more economical modern versions. Economy in use can be obliterated by the costs of repairs and premature replacement.

As to priorities, yes, I'd reckon outside work while the sun shines.

Ivor

 

[Roger H]

Oooh, a cellar with a fireplace

Is that not a coal hole?

 

[Pennyviz]

Oooh, a cellar with a fireplace. The most exciting thing in our cellar is a sump pump.

If you have ch, check that there is adequate water treatment in the system.

Btw, old boilers... that are working well... are a precious asset. With their robust cast-iron heat exchangers and absence of electronic gizmos they will go on and on, and long outlast supposedly more economical modern versions. Economy in use can be obliterated by the costs of repairs and premature replacement.

As to priorities, yes, I'd reckon outside work while the sun shines.

Ivor

Ivor is of course right about old boilers, assuming they haven't had 20 more rads added to the circuit since they were put in, but it depends on how risk averse you are and whether you could tolerate your family moaning if the boiler stops working in the winter like the one we just had

Penny

 

[Househunter]

Thank you to all who replied.

Firstly, congratulations on the new (well old!) house and on the 'fairly positive' surveyor's report.

Cheers, Flyfisher!

As for thoughts, here goes:

1. Getting the windows working (opening) - basic maintenance/repair, so no LBC required (as long as it doesn't involve actually replacing the windows!)

Ah, good --- there are some lights in two of the sashes which are cracked or broken, but there doesn't seem to be anything drastic!

I just need to find a specialist in old windows. ...Anybody know of one in my area (Welsh borders near Shropshire)?

2. Electrical checks - basic maintenance/possible repairs, so no LBC required

That's a relief!

3. Plumbing - same as electrics, as long as any changes do not significantly impact on the structure of the house (eg drilling through priceless features!)

I'd imagine it wouldn't involve much new drilling --- there's already central heating & a gas boiler in the house.

4. Ripping out damp/warped plasterboard - basic maintenance/repair, so no LBC required. It could be argued that without LBC it should strictly be replaced like-for-like . . . in which case it could also be argued that it will be in due course but you just haven't got around to it yet :wink:

Ha ha! The previous owner put up all that plasterboard in the cellar without LBC anyway: I know that this doesn't mean I can simply do away with it, but I'd be surprised if I were ordered to leave it in place!

In short, I would be happy to get on with all those jobs as described without LBC because I can't see how any of them would affect the basic structure or character of the house.

I think you're right.

I've so far:

Had 3 windows removed, taken to pieces and rotten timber replaced and then put back. LBC not required.

Wow --- that gives me hope!

Had a complete rewire. LBC not required.

...So does that. I'm thinking that contacting the CO about this will just cause unnecessary delays (maybe weeks in these parts).

Discussed plumbing with my CO. Internal changes are fine. New holes through the exterior wall would require LBC and may not receive it unless sensitively placed. This was specifically in regards to installing an extractor fan.

I very much doubt that new holes in exterior walls would be needed in my case --- except perhaps to ventilate the cellar, which is another matter (for which I would certainly apply for LBC) --- so the changes would be internal.

I've also removed plasterboard from a partition wall. After emailing my CO some photos this was deemed repair and maintenance but it was touch and go.

The plasterboard in the cellar ceiling is damp, warped, very badly installed, and has blotches of mildew all over it. It's an eyesore, and (as I say) was certainly put up without LBC: I'd imagine most COs would be glad to see it gone!

Every property is different. Only your CO can really call it, if you can get a good relationship with them it's well worth your while.

In my experience, in my area, they love home owners that want to do the right thing.

I'm a bit torn, as I'm cautious and would prefer to run everything I'm doing past officialdom, but I do also need to push on, and I know what an age it takes to get things officially approved around here. ...So if I'm confident something won't need LBC, then I'll go ahead.

(And my neighbour in the terrace has met the CO and found her less relaxed than the ones she'd dealt with previously in England.)

Congratulations on your purchase!

Thank you, Penny!

Most of what you describe is as Abi says repair so no consent needed.

...This is what I'd been hoping!

You haven't mentioned roofs, gutters, drains - double check all of these, as these wold be my total priority - at least I'm guessing you are mains drainage?

The surveyor seemed to think the roof and rainwater goods were sound. He said the pitch-fibre pipe in the drain will need replacing, but that this is not urgent. ...And yes, the house has mains drainage.

And the boiler is a bit of a mystery, as the one which is installed isn't the one for which my solicitor found a certificate! This held up things for a while, whilst we got the vendor to get the thing checked and got a gas safety certificate for it. Again, this is why I'd like to get a plumber/heating engineer to inspect the whole system and make any necessary repairs/changes.

Oooh, a cellar with a fireplace. The most exciting thing in our cellar is a sump pump.

Ha ha! ...But Roger was right --- it's the coal chute (clearer picture here) at the back of the property.

(There's one in the other chamber of the cellar, too, facing onto the street, but it's sealed up.)

However, you weren't wrong about a fireplace. Here it is.

It's a pity that the cellar looks like the set of a horror-film --- hopefully in time it will start to look a little cosier...

If you have ch, check that there is adequate water treatment in the system.

I'll mention it to the plumber when he comes...

Thanks again for the congratulations, good wishes and suggestions --- I'll keep you posted!

 

[skier-hughes]

1. Getting the windows working (opening) - basic maintenance/repair, so no LBC required (as long as it doesn't involve actually replacing the windows!)

Ah, good --- there are some lights in two of the sashes which are cracked or broken, but there doesn't seem to be anything drastic!

I just need to find a specialist in old windows. ...Anybody know of one in my area (Welsh borders near Shropshire)?

Feltwell may be able to help you, he is somewhere close to that region, but he did do his window repairs himself, and very well to if I may say so. Have a look back at his posts for inspiration.

 

[Abi Cott]

I'm a bit torn, as I'm cautious and would prefer to run everything I'm doing past officialdom, but I do also need to push on, and I know what an age it takes to get things officially approved around here. ...So if I'm confident something won't need LBC, then I'll go ahead.

(And my neighbour in the terrace has met the CO and found her less relaxed than the ones she'd dealt with previously in England.)

Where my CO deemed things repair and maintenance it was done via email and took a maximum of 5 working days, or it was during her visit to the property.

The LBC I applied for took 6 weeks. That was the maximum permitted according to the council website.

Oh and I've got a stud partition wall to remove that was definitely installed without LBC but will still require LBC to take it down. So things are not always as clear cut as you would think

 

[Flyfisher]

The only absolutely safe thing is to obtain LBC, even for things that arguably don't need them. That's because it's the CO who holds all the power in any such 'argument'. Also, COs can change and what one CO might have verbally agreed is a repair another might consider an alteration. An official 'audit trail' of LBCs for all works carried out should help avoid possible complications during a later sale of the property. That said, I can certainly understand the frustration of a 2/3 month LBC cycle.

One possibility is to agree the works in principle with the CO and then submit the LBC application but start the works immediately. I've done this with a chimney stack that was badly in need of rebuilding. Arguably such work is a repair and therefore not need LBC but it could also be argued that because new bricks were used then LBC would be required. So I met with our CO, described the proposed works (dismantling & rebuilding) and we agreed what bricks and mortar mix would be used. I then started the work immediately but also included the works in another LBC application I was already working on. A few photos and written confirmation of the brick type and mortar mix was all that was necessary. The work was completed well before the LBC approval finally came through but years later I have the paperwork that makes any debate over it being a repair or alteration irrelevant.

Admittedly, this approach requires a good relationship with the CO but might be worth considering if time really is of the essence.

 

[Househunter]

Feltwell may be able to help you, he is somewhere close to that region, but he did do his window repairs himself, and very well to if I may say so. Have a look back at his posts for inspiration.

Thanks! I'll check him out...

Where my CO deemed things repair and maintenance it was done via email and took a maximum of 5 working days, or it was during her visit to the property.

Well, a week's delay isn't too bad, I guess.

The LBC I applied for took 6 weeks. That was the maximum permitted according to the council website.

...But having to wait six weeks before I could get going would indeed be a big setback.

Oh and I've got a stud partition wall to remove that was definitely installed without LBC but will still require LBC to take it down. So things are not always as clear cut as you would think

I'd be astonished if I were told that I couldn't remove that badly installed eyesore without LBC --- but with officialdom, who knows?!

The only absolutely safe thing is to obtain LBC, even for things that arguably don't need them. That's because it's the CO who holds all the power in any such 'argument'. Also, COs can change and what one CO might have verbally agreed is a repair another might consider an alteration.

What if I were to obtain an e-mail from the current CO stating that the repair/alteration does not require consent?

Surely a subsequent CO couldn't slap me with an enforcement notice for something approved in writing by the current one?

An official 'audit trail' of LBCs for all works carried out should help avoid possible complications during a later sale of the property. That said, I can certainly understand the frustration of a 2/3 month LBC cycle.

That's my dilemma in a nutshell.

One possibility is to agree the works in principle with the CO and then submit the LBC application but start the works immediately. I've done this with a chimney stack that was badly in need of rebuilding. Arguably such work is a repair and therefore not need LBC but it could also be argued that because new bricks were used then LBC would be required. So I met with our CO, described the proposed works (dismantling & rebuilding) and we agreed what bricks and mortar mix would be used. I then started the work immediately but also included the works in another LBC application I was already working on. A few photos and written confirmation of the brick type and mortar mix was all that was necessary. The work was completed well before the LBC approval finally came through but years later I have the paperwork that makes any debate over it being a repair or alteration irrelevant.

Admittedly, this approach requires a good relationship with the CO but might be worth considering if time really is of the essence.

That sounds better, but I have never actually met her, so I have no relationship whatsoever with her!

I'm thinking I could just send an e-mail outlining the most pressing works and ask which of them need consent and which of them can be tackled in the meantime while I draw up my application for the ones that need consent.

Also, I'm not sure whether it'd be better to get the electrician and plumber in to assess the work before writing off to officialdom --- or whether I contact officialdom first, wait for a reply, and then tell the electrician and plumber what was said. What do folks here think?

...And thanks again for the suggestions --- all food for thought!

 

[Abi Cott]

I'm happy with the email trail. My CO tends to use phrases like "in my opinion" but having something in writing is good enough for me.

Sending yours an email and outlining the proposed works and inviting her to view the property if she feels it would be helpful sounds like a good idea.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'd be happy with an email trail as well - I guess it depends on how 'by the book' one wants to go. I've previously written to council planning to ask advice (not related to listing) about whether something would be acceptable and received an answer along the lines 'in my opinion yes, but this does not constitute offical advice' etc. I think this is because the only definitive route for consent (planning or LBC) is the defined process that culminates with a formal consent or refusal. Having said that, I'd be astonished if a CO decided to take any punitive action against the fairly trivial works being proposed by househunter in this thread without LBC.

Also, I've now got the benefit of about 12 years experience of 'the system' and an immensely helpful and accessible CO, but I well remember how nervous I was about this whole new 'listing' business as a novice.

The really good thing about this whole thread though is that househunter is clearly wanting to do the right thing and that must bode well. Unlike those owners who just move in and start ripping a place to shreds without a second thought Of course, they are hardly likely to end up here asking for advice!

 

[skier-hughes]

The really good thing about this whole thread though is that househunter is clearly wanting to do the right thing and that must bode well. Unlike those owners who just move in and start ripping a place to shreds without a second thought Of course, they are hardly likely to end up here asking for advice!

No, we are normally buying houses off them, saying, "what should I do if this hasn't had consent?" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Househunter]

Thanks for the further replies: I shall draft an e-mail in the morning...

...And I found Feltwell's post on sash windows --- amazing work, but too ambitious for me to manage! (At least at the moment!)

 

[ElectronicFur]

Congratulations on your new old house.

I also just moved into my place, and what I found helpful was reading this book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Old-House-Handbook-Practical-Repair/dp/0711227721

I found it a useful intro. Whilst it's not a comprehensive how-to, it points you in the right direction.