Boilers

[Juju]

I suppose I should call this thread Period Boilers... I would appreciate some advice on boilers. When our combi boiler was serviced last week, the engineer said it should be replaced ideally as it is only G rated for efficiency and is too small for the house (it's 24kw when he said we should have 35kw). We know the guy who renovated the house was a heating engineer but he probably had the boiler left over from a job or got it cheap so fitted it for that reason. The ceiling is also very low and he fitted a cupboard underneath so space was probably an issue too. Anyway, assuming I can persuade Mr Juju to pay for a new boiler, is it worth doing? The British Gas salesman did a convincing job about how we'd get water faster through our showers and running the baths and said the radiator in the attic bedroom should work better too. He said bills would be lower - but not if we like our shower so much we spend longer in there and therefore use up more hot water!

Any thoughts on this most welcome (and also what you think it should cost - British Gas quote rather substantial!)

Juju

 

[Merlin]

Hi Juju.

We had some work done last year by a local plumber.

We did have a system boiler in the cellar, a hot water cylinder in the first floor bedroom and a cold water tank in the second floor bedroom. These were all at the front of the house. The kitchen and the bathroom are both at the back of the house.

We decided to put a combi boiler in the kitchen (losing a cupboard, but that wasn't a major concern), thus heating water next to the sink in the kitchen, and only sending it up one floor to the bathroom directly above. Thus water was heated on demand, where it was required. This seems logical and thus should be more efficient. (it also gained us space in two bedrooms!)

The removal and installation cost us £2300. The boiler has a 5 year guarantee and was serviced last week at a cost of £52. It is a 35kw boiler, supplying 1 kitchen, 2 bathrooms and 12 radiators. (Our showers are electric.)

Merlin

 

[robgil]

i would use anyone but british gas , they are expensive and have been known to do work that doesnt need doing.
get a second or even third opinion. what kind of boiler have you got?

The British Gas salesman did a convincing job

i bet he did , they have a habit of selling you things these sales men.

 

[Juju]

I'm definitely getting other quotes and opinions on whether it's worth doing. They're not saying the boiler is faulty or anything - just that a new boiler would be more efficient and appropriate for the house. It is annoying that they insist on extras like flushing through the system etc. The system has no sludge - the radiators work fine and are only 10 years old. As I say we've got plumbers (also heating specialists) coming next week to start the bathroom so I'll get their opinion. I certainly don't want to get a new boiler if the only improvement is a better shower - I prefer baths and Mr Juju can shower at the gym

 

[robgil]

british gas love to power flush central heating systems.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

The increase in efficiency may have some environmental benefits, but will probably not be so good from an economic perspective.

Lets suppose you pay out £1000 for gas. If the new boiler is 10% more efficient then you'd be paying £900 p.a. saving £100. If the new installation costs, say, £2000 you'd need to run it for 20 years before you started to see a 'money in pocket' saving. I'd ask Mr British Gas to run through the figures with you.

Boiler replacement is only really worth doing if your current boiler isn't delivering the goods (i.e. underpowered) or is of an age where component breakdown and servicing costs are becoming painful. Otherwise just keep it running for as long as possible.

The same thing applies to other plant like cars. It rarely makes economic sense to replace a functioning item with a new one if it can be kept going with targetted maintenance.

 

[Jill]

Juju, one of our boilers lasted for over 20 years. British Gas for many years when they came to do the service kept telling us it ought to be replaced as you couldnt get spare parts. It wasn't very efficient but it kept going.

We finally had it removed last year when we converted the two houses into one. For two boilers, two hot and cold water tanks and associated radiators and pipework to be removed, and to install a Worchester 30 CDI condensing combi Boiler with 14 new radiators and associated pipe work cost £5600. (This also included a system flush and clean on completion, not by a British Gas plumber)

 

[jocelyn plummer]

That's funny, our 'Gas Safe' engineer says that most standard combi boiler parts are available for up to 12 years after manufacture, and if it aint broke don't fix, just keep it regularly serviced. I would anticipate the average cost of replacement to be around £1,300 -£2,000 depending on the requirements.

 

[Juju]

As Mr Juju nearly passed out at the quote from British Gas, and the fact that we would need to lose a kitchen cupboard for a new boiler, I think we'll leave it anyway till we can afford a new kitchen - which is some way off... But I will still ask our plumbers their opinion next week too.

 

[d49xc]

I've never been convinced why a power flush is necessary (apart from that they can charge extra for it)
The conventional explanation seem to be that modern boilers are more sensitive to muck etc getting inside them and the installers/boiler makers want the heating system to be clean of black sludge etc prior.

It seems to me more likely in old and probably larger systems that all the muck etc is trapped in the radiators and is unlikely to go anywhere of its own accord. Power flushing is unlikely to get rid of it all and instead is probably going to distribute the muck through out the entire system where it is now MORE likely to end up in the boiler.

In any event I have a boiler which I think is now 20 years old and runs very satisfactorily and I've seen some seriously large units which must have been installed in the 1970's still going.

 

[philpjuk100]

The power flush is accompanied with pounding the pipes and rads and using a cordless vibrating tool.It caused one of my rads to leak where the mounting strap was welded on the back"bad news sir,you have a leaking radiator,we have a spare in the van,shall we fit it?" took a trip to screwfix ,bought a replacement,(£30),and fitted it during their lunch break! The fitters told me that they have to flush the system to stop damage being caused by debris which was already in the system and any debris/flux introduced during replacing the boiler,they then told me mine was very clean!phil.

 

[CatherineB]

british gas love to power flush central heating systems.

At £550 a pop, I bet they do! Although to be fair, in our current house we had a power flush done (reluctantly) quite a few years ago, and it did solve the problem with that boiler - at least, it did the second time they did the power flush (at their own expense, that time!). Living in Cambridge, where the water is very hard, it does make sense to me that there must be all sorts of rubbish building up in the system over a long period of time.

We are also looking at the boiler question, for the new house...

We have just been quoted over £11k by British Gas. This is for:
- Replacing two old boilers, one of which is 12 years old and is in a poorly ventilated cupboard, dangerously flued via the dining room chimney, and the other of which is a pretty old back boiler, heating the top floor of the house (which is currently set up as a separate flat), with one whizzo new one
- Replacing the old (2) unlagged, from the ark, hot water tanks, with one large whizzo new solar-ready one
- Installing two solar water heating panels on the small stretch of south facing roof on the house
- A £400 whizzo new controller for all of the above
- A large (I suspect) amount of re-piping, to deal with the fact that the location of the new tank and boiler is nowhere near either of the old ones
- Various other bits that I don't even begin to understand
- And of course the ubiquitous power flush at £550!

The salesman went back round today, to fine tune the quote, which has gone down a mere £1k from the £12k first quoted, so I will have no choice but to ask elsewhere for quotes at those prices.

 

[JohnB]

When I half owned a small solar hot water installation company a few years ago, the prices charged by small installers were generally far lower than the big national companies. We had qualified gas installers available when new boilers were required. I don't know what the situation is now though.

 

[Jill]

One of my new magazines is offering a prize to win a Worcester Greenstar condensing Boiler and up to 2 x Greenskies Solar water heating Panels, This is worth around £4,000. This may be of relevance for those who are wondering whether their quotes are realistic.

 

[MatthewC]

I'm definitely getting other quotes and opinions on whether it's worth doing. They're not saying the boiler is faulty or anything - just that a new boiler would be more efficient and appropriate for the house.

In which case I have to ask - is there anything actually wrong with what you have? If everything is as hot as you want/need, and it's not causing problems, then leave well alone, surely?

NB British Gas supplied my electricity at a good rate when I was living in London, but I wouldn't go near them for anything gas related! I would expect almost any local plumber to undercut their rates by a good margin - which I will prove in about next March or April when I hope to have a complete new combi boiler system fitted.