Toby Newell
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- Surrey
…assembly rooms
Please see pasted email I just sent to Miroslav who is, apparently, Waltham Forest borough councils "Cultural and Heritage Premises Supervisor"
I may be in Breach of confidentiality stuff but in the name of William Morris I don't care, at least whilst he is turning in his grave he hopefully will take some small crumb of comfort that there are still some people out there who give a s**t.
Whilst I think it is a shame for the Walthamstow Assembly Rooms as one of the finest examples of British Art Deco public buildings I was more worried about the extreme irony of the proposed works to the William Morris Gallery which is the only such gallery/museum in the country I believe.
Miroslav during the course of carrying out his culturally important duties on behalf of Waltham Forest borough council sent me an email (not included) asking me to quote to refinish the 718sqm of floors to the assembly rooms and approx. 150sqm in the William Morris gallery.
I do not normally reply to these enquiries any more as 100% of the time they are looking for idiotically low quotes from people with no interest in standards or heritage or anything apart from being dishonest and making money.
I let myself dream as apparently this council has a newly formed "Cultural Heritage Premises" department, which sounded promising and also (mainly) because as a patron of the decorative arts I owed it to Mr Morris to at least try and make a stand.
I phoned Miroslav today and got told straight away after I gave him a ballpark price starting from £30 psqm that he "could not entertain even passing that upwards to his superiors" as the quotes he was getting were in the range of £12 to £15 psqm.
I told him that these were around the prices of my costs (if all went well) and that there is no way a competent job (let alone a sympathetic heritage job) could be carried out for that price and indeed that such a low price was disingenuous as it would be physically impossible to undertake the job at anywhere near that price using the specification of three coats of two part high traffic lacquer.
(The specification is wrong but I am NOT going to correct it as I have done many times in the past)
After speaking to Miroslav and telling him there is no point in me turning up I sent him the email below. I think it is sad that University educated and presumably experienced people apparently charged (and paid tens of thousands of pounds a year no doubt) with protecting our cultural heritage either have absolutely no idea of materials, techniques or current labour prices for trained professional craftspeople / technicians or either do not give a crap about their own job. I know the exact types of websites where they profess to undertake work for £12 to £15 psqm and it does not take a rocket scientist to see that these websites make late night American shopping channel showcases look like a paragon of honest virtue. One would of thought (hoped even) that seeing as the main requisite of the job surely would entail employing suitably experienced and well meaning professionals to carry out restoration / maintenance works that the incumbent managers / supervisors would have at least a rudimentary knowledge of the techniques involved or costs thereof by undertaking a little research.
I can only assume the Cultural and Heritage standard level research involved the use of google and the typing of the words 'floor sanding london' and the contacting of the lowest common denominators with patently dodgy looking and sounding websites and sales spiels.
Not bad work if you can get it I would say. Apart from the lack of job satisfaction and personal fulfilment. And actually doing the job you have apparently been tasked with. I am being ironic. They are, of course, carrying out their job to the standard that is expected of them which is, approximately zero.
It's not about the money, the assembly rooms even at £30psqm would be a very stressful job for me and the reward compared to the risk would not be that great (to do a great job at least like I do) the William Morris gallery on the other hand is just depressing, he is one of my (and no doubt many of your) cultural heroes. I even joked I would do the gallery for free.
Please excuse my language and the ranting (not that my email will have any effect as I have seen this time and time again, I have been asked to quote for many very important landmark buildings only for the job to go to an incompetent, dishonest contractor who has duly ruined the timber) but I am sure Mr Morris approves, in fact, as part of my membership of SPAB I think I am duty bound to give a s**t.
Best to you all, Toby
Email reply to Waltham Forest Borough Council Cultural and Heritage Premises Supervisor sent today:
Miroslav
Very pleased to have spoken to you today.
Thank you for your enquiry.
Unfortunately, as discussed, there is no way I can do a high quality, even low quality job for the ridiculous prices you are expecting.
The prices for such a job started at £30 psqm 15 years ago. In real terms £30psqm is a massive drop from year 2000.
Maybe your conservation department supervisors have only been in the job for a few years and thus have no idea what a correct price should be.
Bona Traffic costs £90 per 5 litres and correct coverage for a commercial area is around 8sqm per litre which gives (including 10% for wastage, two part finishes only last around 3hrs when mixed in this weather and 8hrs maximum in the cold)
720 x 3 coats x 110% = 2376 sqm of coating (for 3 coats)
divided by 8sqm per litre coverage rate = 297 litres required.
297 litres divided by 5 litres per unit container = 59.4 units (round down to 59 units)
59 x £90 = £5310
Overheads for job including capital costs for vans, machinery, maintenance of machinery, normal business overheads etc. approx £600
Abrasives allowing for correct usage of belts x 4 grades, plus screeder and trio finishing discs to give smooth surface including scraper blades and all sundries approx £900
Total costs (excluding filler, I assume the specification does not allow for filling at this price which could be an extra £700 to £1000 in materials for filler and extra abrasives used) = £5310 + £600 + £900 = £6810
Approximate man hours required, difficult to ascertain as it depends upon the current finish applied and the unevenness of the floor and the amount of physical obstructions ie perimeter artefacts, columns, power sockets in floor etc.
At £12 psqm we have £12 x 720 = £8640 total job price, minus £6810 non labour costs = £1830 labour costs and profit.
One can assume approx 35sqm per man day overall sanded and finished per 8hr day, so roughly we have 720 divided by 35 = 20 man days (of 8hrs)
we are assuming here that the hall can be closed for several weeks and that no out of hours working is required (which would involve overtime rates for labour)
So, labour and profit costs = £1830 divided by 35 = £52.29 per man day OR £6.54 per hour labour rate (less than minimum wage and zero profits for contractor)
This is assuming work to be carried out in normal hours with no weekend or night work.
As you can see from my very rough calculations, the prices you have been quoted are a joke.
It is a shame people in the so called 'Heritage' department do not know the value of materials or labour or what the correct price should be.
I am a University educated fourth generation craftsman with City and Guilds qualifications in both Antique restoration and French Polishing, I am a member of SPAB and have highly rated articles on wood restoration on my website which are recommended worldwide. I am also the unofficial wood restoration expert on periodproperty.co.uk the UK's largest period property website.
I have worked on some of London's most important listed buildings including the Law Society and The Palace of Westminster.
My prices have mostly stayed the same for the last 15 years as the influx of cheap labour and dishonest people into the industry have forced down prices by offering to do work for unreasonably low rates and then cutting corners.
It is a shame so called professionals tasked with ensuring works meet (supposedly) high heritage standards have absolutely no idea what they should be paying.
I can guarantee you that for £12 or £15 psqm you will get a poorly sanded floor using poor techniques and poor materials that will not last long and that will potentially damage the floor.
The assembly room is a shame but it is doubly ironic that The William Morris gallery should be butchered in this way when he himself was such a patron of the decorative arts, I am sure he will be turning in his grave.
I would love to work on the gallery but there is no way I can match these prices since I do all the work I specify and employ highly skilled craftspeople.
It is a shame the push for ever lower costs takes no account of the fact that getting a cheap job will prove more expensive in the medium and long term which will result in the floor needing replacement decades earlier.
How much would a replacement reclaimed parquet floor cost for 720sqm? I think the answer is 'lol'.
There is absolutely no point in me wasting my valuable time coming to view the job if there is absolutely no chance of me being able to supply a reasonable tender to undertake a reasonable job.
I can guarantee one thing, the work you get will be of a very low standard and dramatically shorten the life of the floor as the finish will not last very long.
Have a look at my website, then the website of the £12 and £15psqm people.
It should be blatantly obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence who is honest and genuine and who is out to lie, cheat and make a quick buck.
Such a shame.
Thank you for your enquiry, I apologise if my directness has in any way offended you and best of luck with your project and I hope they do not ruin your floors.
Best wishes
Toby Newell
Toby Newell | M: 07967 157605
http://WWW.NEWELLWOODWORKS.CO.UK
Please see pasted email I just sent to Miroslav who is, apparently, Waltham Forest borough councils "Cultural and Heritage Premises Supervisor"
I may be in Breach of confidentiality stuff but in the name of William Morris I don't care, at least whilst he is turning in his grave he hopefully will take some small crumb of comfort that there are still some people out there who give a s**t.
Whilst I think it is a shame for the Walthamstow Assembly Rooms as one of the finest examples of British Art Deco public buildings I was more worried about the extreme irony of the proposed works to the William Morris Gallery which is the only such gallery/museum in the country I believe.
Miroslav during the course of carrying out his culturally important duties on behalf of Waltham Forest borough council sent me an email (not included) asking me to quote to refinish the 718sqm of floors to the assembly rooms and approx. 150sqm in the William Morris gallery.
I do not normally reply to these enquiries any more as 100% of the time they are looking for idiotically low quotes from people with no interest in standards or heritage or anything apart from being dishonest and making money.
I let myself dream as apparently this council has a newly formed "Cultural Heritage Premises" department, which sounded promising and also (mainly) because as a patron of the decorative arts I owed it to Mr Morris to at least try and make a stand.
I phoned Miroslav today and got told straight away after I gave him a ballpark price starting from £30 psqm that he "could not entertain even passing that upwards to his superiors" as the quotes he was getting were in the range of £12 to £15 psqm.
I told him that these were around the prices of my costs (if all went well) and that there is no way a competent job (let alone a sympathetic heritage job) could be carried out for that price and indeed that such a low price was disingenuous as it would be physically impossible to undertake the job at anywhere near that price using the specification of three coats of two part high traffic lacquer.
(The specification is wrong but I am NOT going to correct it as I have done many times in the past)
After speaking to Miroslav and telling him there is no point in me turning up I sent him the email below. I think it is sad that University educated and presumably experienced people apparently charged (and paid tens of thousands of pounds a year no doubt) with protecting our cultural heritage either have absolutely no idea of materials, techniques or current labour prices for trained professional craftspeople / technicians or either do not give a crap about their own job. I know the exact types of websites where they profess to undertake work for £12 to £15 psqm and it does not take a rocket scientist to see that these websites make late night American shopping channel showcases look like a paragon of honest virtue. One would of thought (hoped even) that seeing as the main requisite of the job surely would entail employing suitably experienced and well meaning professionals to carry out restoration / maintenance works that the incumbent managers / supervisors would have at least a rudimentary knowledge of the techniques involved or costs thereof by undertaking a little research.
I can only assume the Cultural and Heritage standard level research involved the use of google and the typing of the words 'floor sanding london' and the contacting of the lowest common denominators with patently dodgy looking and sounding websites and sales spiels.
Not bad work if you can get it I would say. Apart from the lack of job satisfaction and personal fulfilment. And actually doing the job you have apparently been tasked with. I am being ironic. They are, of course, carrying out their job to the standard that is expected of them which is, approximately zero.
It's not about the money, the assembly rooms even at £30psqm would be a very stressful job for me and the reward compared to the risk would not be that great (to do a great job at least like I do) the William Morris gallery on the other hand is just depressing, he is one of my (and no doubt many of your) cultural heroes. I even joked I would do the gallery for free.
Please excuse my language and the ranting (not that my email will have any effect as I have seen this time and time again, I have been asked to quote for many very important landmark buildings only for the job to go to an incompetent, dishonest contractor who has duly ruined the timber) but I am sure Mr Morris approves, in fact, as part of my membership of SPAB I think I am duty bound to give a s**t.
Best to you all, Toby
Email reply to Waltham Forest Borough Council Cultural and Heritage Premises Supervisor sent today:
Miroslav
Very pleased to have spoken to you today.
Thank you for your enquiry.
Unfortunately, as discussed, there is no way I can do a high quality, even low quality job for the ridiculous prices you are expecting.
The prices for such a job started at £30 psqm 15 years ago. In real terms £30psqm is a massive drop from year 2000.
Maybe your conservation department supervisors have only been in the job for a few years and thus have no idea what a correct price should be.
Bona Traffic costs £90 per 5 litres and correct coverage for a commercial area is around 8sqm per litre which gives (including 10% for wastage, two part finishes only last around 3hrs when mixed in this weather and 8hrs maximum in the cold)
720 x 3 coats x 110% = 2376 sqm of coating (for 3 coats)
divided by 8sqm per litre coverage rate = 297 litres required.
297 litres divided by 5 litres per unit container = 59.4 units (round down to 59 units)
59 x £90 = £5310
Overheads for job including capital costs for vans, machinery, maintenance of machinery, normal business overheads etc. approx £600
Abrasives allowing for correct usage of belts x 4 grades, plus screeder and trio finishing discs to give smooth surface including scraper blades and all sundries approx £900
Total costs (excluding filler, I assume the specification does not allow for filling at this price which could be an extra £700 to £1000 in materials for filler and extra abrasives used) = £5310 + £600 + £900 = £6810
Approximate man hours required, difficult to ascertain as it depends upon the current finish applied and the unevenness of the floor and the amount of physical obstructions ie perimeter artefacts, columns, power sockets in floor etc.
At £12 psqm we have £12 x 720 = £8640 total job price, minus £6810 non labour costs = £1830 labour costs and profit.
One can assume approx 35sqm per man day overall sanded and finished per 8hr day, so roughly we have 720 divided by 35 = 20 man days (of 8hrs)
we are assuming here that the hall can be closed for several weeks and that no out of hours working is required (which would involve overtime rates for labour)
So, labour and profit costs = £1830 divided by 35 = £52.29 per man day OR £6.54 per hour labour rate (less than minimum wage and zero profits for contractor)
This is assuming work to be carried out in normal hours with no weekend or night work.
As you can see from my very rough calculations, the prices you have been quoted are a joke.
It is a shame people in the so called 'Heritage' department do not know the value of materials or labour or what the correct price should be.
I am a University educated fourth generation craftsman with City and Guilds qualifications in both Antique restoration and French Polishing, I am a member of SPAB and have highly rated articles on wood restoration on my website which are recommended worldwide. I am also the unofficial wood restoration expert on periodproperty.co.uk the UK's largest period property website.
I have worked on some of London's most important listed buildings including the Law Society and The Palace of Westminster.
My prices have mostly stayed the same for the last 15 years as the influx of cheap labour and dishonest people into the industry have forced down prices by offering to do work for unreasonably low rates and then cutting corners.
It is a shame so called professionals tasked with ensuring works meet (supposedly) high heritage standards have absolutely no idea what they should be paying.
I can guarantee you that for £12 or £15 psqm you will get a poorly sanded floor using poor techniques and poor materials that will not last long and that will potentially damage the floor.
The assembly room is a shame but it is doubly ironic that The William Morris gallery should be butchered in this way when he himself was such a patron of the decorative arts, I am sure he will be turning in his grave.
I would love to work on the gallery but there is no way I can match these prices since I do all the work I specify and employ highly skilled craftspeople.
It is a shame the push for ever lower costs takes no account of the fact that getting a cheap job will prove more expensive in the medium and long term which will result in the floor needing replacement decades earlier.
How much would a replacement reclaimed parquet floor cost for 720sqm? I think the answer is 'lol'.
There is absolutely no point in me wasting my valuable time coming to view the job if there is absolutely no chance of me being able to supply a reasonable tender to undertake a reasonable job.
I can guarantee one thing, the work you get will be of a very low standard and dramatically shorten the life of the floor as the finish will not last very long.
Have a look at my website, then the website of the £12 and £15psqm people.
It should be blatantly obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence who is honest and genuine and who is out to lie, cheat and make a quick buck.
Such a shame.
Thank you for your enquiry, I apologise if my directness has in any way offended you and best of luck with your project and I hope they do not ruin your floors.
Best wishes
Toby Newell
Toby Newell | M: 07967 157605
http://WWW.NEWELLWOODWORKS.CO.UK
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